How can it be possible for someone to get that close to Peter Mandelson unchallenged, and not shoot him?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/d/int/new.../uk/7927668.stm

Heh. /sarcastic grin

Well, Lord Mandelson was the darling of the Social Democrat luvvies and 'right on' chattering classes not so long ago for his highly effective, manipulative services to NuLab, with people like me being dismissed as off-message, nasty Tory dinosaurs. Together with Alistair Campbell, this man is the largely the reason for the demise of the Conservative Party and true parliamentary politics through the late 90s and early 2000s, and look where it/he has landed us: well and truly in the shit.

Mandelson is for me the very embodiment of Labour - a self-serving, souless, media driven device whose only purpose is to retain power at all costs irrespective of all other considerations. At least Max Clifford doesn't purport to be a politician.

Welcome to the party. Sadly though, it's 3.30am and we're at the 'cleaning up vomit and broken glasses stage'and I don't think there's any beer left in the fridge.

And the Tories will make everything better, with their refreshing new attitude to politics, which is in no way lifted directly from the Campbell/Mandelson playbook! And of course, the economy will be saved by replacing the people who were emulating the bankers with... the actual bankers!

It amazes me how anyone over the age of thirty can still believe that there is a "good" political party and a "bad" political party (which you clearly do, given your rather fanboyish spamming of any political comment on this forum with BOO HISS LABOUR YAY TORY! responses). Surely you must see that there are only shades of cunt? I believe that Labour, even at their very worst, are going to be marginally less cuntish than the Tories. I doubt I'll ever get any more enthusiastic about a British political party than that for the rest of my life - until I see them actually getting things right. (Don't forget that anybody can talk a good game in opposition; Labour certainly did).

Maybe this is just a function of having your "team" out of office for such a long time. I was as fanboyish as you up until 1997, (alright, considerably more fanboyish) but then again, I was born in 1974, and couldn't remember life before Thatcher. I did not have the benefit of experience. You do, and yet you still seem to believe that there is GOOD and BAD in this battle.

I find that very hard to understand.

*edit* Also, I have never met anyone who admitted to liking Peter Mandelson, never mind regarding him as a "darling". And I used to live in Hampstead, and everything.

I agree with you totally, Cad, but judging by the amount of people who even bother to VOTE these days, more and more people are realising what a bunch of materialistic, self-serving wankers our politicians really are. I myself didn't vote in either of the last two elections.

The BBC interviewer treated the protestor like she was some kind of filthy hippie, despite the fact that she was polite, articulate and has a full-time job. We're approaching a Fox News level of journalism when a BBC employee is coming out with phrases like "People are texting us saying you're a cow".

Yes, indeed I do have the benefit of experience, that's precisely why I was saying pretty much the same thing 5 years ago about New Labour and key individuals within it when it was deeply unfashionable to do so, rather than say, now, when the facts are painfully obvious.

I'm disappointed and annoyed to be accused of 'spamming the forum' with political comment by you of all people, but hey, no doubt you're angry with yourself at having been proved so *wrong* about pretty much everything. If it's any consolation to you I've been hideously wrong about loads of stuff too, but then I don't try to take these failings out on anyone else (or patronise them for that matter).

In terms of 'sides', there *are* clearly two main schools of political thought which are loosely embodied by Labour/Liberals on one side and the Conservatives on the other. However, this is not a matter of supporting 'teams', please don't try to label me as some moron with a football supporter mentality.

Sorry, but that just ranks as negative, defeatist crap in my book.

If you don't like something, do something positive and try to change it for the better - don't just sit there moaning how shit it all is and how everyone is such a wanker etc. Gah.

Don't take it personally; that "spamming" comment was loose phrasing on my part, although you must surely admit that you're in every available thread on the subject, gloating? (Not exclusively gloating, either, I should add; there's plenty of valid debate, but there's also plenty of gloating. See above post).

I was "wrong" about Labour twelve years ago, and I was certainly angry about it; but strangely, I'm not angry with myself. The party I thought I was voting for in 1997 was not the one who eventually assumed office. I'm angry with Campbell, Blair, Mandelson et al, which is why I felt the need to react to your laughable assertion that "Lord Mandelson was the darling of the Social Democrat luvvies and 'right on' chattering classes not so long ago for his highly effective, manipulative services to NuLab". Could you provide even one example of Mandelson being portrayed as a "darling", anywhere? I doubt you could get his mother to go that far.

And whether you like it or not, I feel you do behave a bit like a football supporter. I was thinking more along the lines of a Spectrum v C64 battle when I made the original comment, but if you'd rather we went with the football analogy, then yes, posts like the one above do fall into the category of "mindless chanting".

Please bear in mind that I am not a Labour supporter, haven't been for a decade, and any vote I cast for them (or anyone else, for that matter) in the future will be purely tactical.

What if everything IS shit and everyone IS a wanker? What then?

The annoying thing is that if the Tories do get into power and somehow fail to live up to your expectations, I'm almost positive you'll blame Labour.

Shit man, allow me at least a shred of vindication after all these years of being the odd one out.

I admit there is an element of gloating in some of my posts which I guess isn't a particularly pleasant quality on my part, but then I'm only human. It's about the only 'fun' that I'm getting out of the current state of affairs that we all find ourselves, I can assure you.

That said, I am genuinely passionate about my beliefs, which I guess is better than apathy? If more people of all political colours actually gave a shit, our system of government and the people within it could be significantly improved, instead of the dumbass 'politicians are all wankers, all I care about is my next [BMW/wide screen telly/sofa]' type stance.

And exactly WHEN have you seen me do this, mmm? And what right do you have to question my choice not to vote on the basis that I personally see no party worth voting for?


You're doing the very thing you're accusing Cad of, matey. Gah.

Well obviously, they're not.

As for your second point, no, I would blame the Tories just as I did re. the Lawson Boom, ERM fiasco, Poll Tax debacle, botched privatisation of the rail network, PFI.... geddit?

Well I thought the bit about 'what a bunch of materialistic, self-serving wankers our politicians really are' and how you don't even bother to vote were fairly indicative?

Your choice of course, just as it is my choice to be critical of your stance.

I get your point, but so far, I have heard nothing from either of the big Two that points to a better future. Will the Tories stop us heading towards a Big Brother society, for example? No. Will they take power back from the banks and give it to the people? No. All Labour have done is take exisiting Tory thinking (destroy socialism and replace it with protectionism, while worshipping the great god Money) and take it even further. It would just be the devil in a different coat.

Here's a fun game!

Name five current Conservative MPs who you admire.

they made him Lord? must have missed that

Fair points to be sure, but there again the banks/financial sector didn't have the sort of power they've enjoyed for the last 12 years under NuLab during the Tories' 18 year reign, for example. (I admit the Tories did set the tone for NuLab's subsequent mistakes, but I take heart from the undeniable fact that even they didn't go the whole hog in all that time).

I suppose if we are to boil it down, I just think the Tories have/retain a bona fide political philosophy of sorts in contrast to Labour, and basically have more nowse. That said, Cameron is unquestionably Blair Mk.2, which is obviously not good. Trouble is, real politicians don't tend to be young and pretty.

... Shall I dance a little jig whilst I'm at it, Cad?

OK then, my first choice is ANNE WINTERTON. Yes. She's one hell of a gal!

I doff my hat to you, sir. Well played!

Yup, so he's not even been elected, despite wielding his considerable powers. So much for NuLab's regard for our democracy and Parliament...

Erm, no. Everyone knows Labour shifted to the right wing in 1997, that's why Maggie Thatcher was quoted as admiring Tony Blair's lack of socialism, and that's why the Labour party won. Because they shifted to the right, to win. This isn't arguable, it's known by everyone. It's in the public record, it's in frickin' wikipedia!

That's why left wing hero Tony Benn (Lab) repeatedly criticised the Labour government, that's why Blair was opposed to "Red" Ken (Lab) becoming the mayor of London. That's why the whole of Old Labour pissed and moaned for a decade.

Most of the time you're arguing one form of right wing party over another, and it's v. odd.

Good lord I couldn't name ANY current MPs I admire, regardless of party. I agreewith your earlier remark that they are all varying degrees of cunt.

Sorry, but the idea that New Labour are basically just the Tories is self evident hogwash.

The Conservatives certainly would not have massively expanded the public sector like NuLab have done (to soak up unemployment with pretend jobs), nor would they have simply chucked vast sums of taxpayer's cash at the NHS and our education system come to that, at least not without any meaningful reform.

The Conservatives would not have stealth taxed people to anything like the degree that NuLab have done (otherwise we would have certainly seen this during the early 80s and early 90s), and indeed taxes in general would unquestionably be lower: this is the whole point of the Conservative Party.

The Conservatives would have ensured far greater private sector involvement in key areas such as health and education, and no doubt the P.O. would have been privatised years ago like the (successful) German equivalent.

Our National Debt would have been less than it is now thanks to much lower State spending (NHS, public sector expansion etc.) and we would not be pissing quite the hundreds of billions in 'stimulating the economy' as Labour are doing, and would be better placed to do it. (Acid test: Thatcher did not spend her way out of recessions, however politically expedient)

So, there are a few massive differences for you, off the top of my head. The very notion that Labour is 'right wing' is ridiculous, but I'm sure that won't stop you and others claiming this, now that they've so royally fucked up. :)

To be fair, I've thought Labour becasme right wing when Blair took over and abolished Clause 4. I've haven't supported them since.

That is of course in the days when I cared about politics. Now, i just really really miss Guy Fawkes.

IS that obvious? I'm really not convinced, since New Labour utterly destroyed what little resembled a democracy in this country by turning into a slightly more incompetent and dishonest version of the Tories. (Who, whatever else they've done, have never denied being Tories.)

Sorry, but it just isn't. It's anything but evident. Nuclear power? Check. Nuclear weapons? Check. Punitive attacks on the most vulnerable via the welfare system? Check. Increasing wealth gap between the poor and rich? Check. Rampant privatisation/decimation of vital national institutions/assets like the Post Office? Check. Aggressive foreign policy? Check. Annihilation of civil liberties and runaway surveillance? Check. Sucking hard on American cock? Check. Absolutely naked sleaze and corruption? Check check check. Private Eye reads more like Animal Farm with every day that passes.

Oh yeah, because PPP/PFI has turned out to be SUCH a great idea, hasn't it?

Clegg seems to be in the process of turning the Lib Dems into a third version of the Tories, at exactly the point when traditional Tory values have been discredited, and we have a massively unfair system of representation that means voting for anyone else is a total waste of time. We tried to change that, of course, by voting for a party in 1997 who promised to reform the electoral system, but seem to have overlooked that particular commitment in the subsequent decade-and-a-bit.

Who is there left that a moderately rational person could possibly suspend disbelief in?

As I repeat time and again: vote Liberal.*

I'll grant you: I see the differences between Labour and the Tories in all the ways you outline, but I also see a wide gap between Labour and a party of the left.

Read this: http://www.l-r-c.org.uk/policy/lrcpolicy/lrcprogramme.pdf if you can be bothered.

It's pretty clear that despite enlarging the public sector and increasing stealth taxes, Labour aren't a left wing party.

A left wing party wouldn't sell council houses, it wouldn't introduce market forces into the NHS, it wouldn't price the poor out of university. More importantly, wealth would be redistributed, which simply has not happened: the rich have got richer while the poor got poorer.

It's crazy to me that enlarging the public sector hasn't led to, for instance, the nationalisation of railways and prisons. And that the increase of stealth taxes hasn't actually been used against the rich to redistribute money to the poor.

I don't like Labour, but I don't like the Tories either. For my money, they both fucked up during their terms in power.

NB The Tories didn't spend themselves out of recession, true, they bought their way out, selling assets like British Gas so cheap as to be unbelievable.

(*Edit: as Stu mentioned, and I had a funny feeling had happened last party conference, the Libs are also moving towards the right, so it might be a bit late to vote Liberal, sad times.)

I honestly don't think anyone can equate the Tories' Small State aspirations with Labour's Big State/breathtaking disregard for civil liberties? The Tories did not seriously propose ID cards at any time during their 18 years in office, nor did they create a whole raft of new actionable crimes like 'inciting racial hatred' and the rest. I could go on.

New Labour is the very embodiment of State control freakery and the loss of personal choices/freedoms.

Hmm, whilst I agree that Labour have indeed done all of those things, I don't think it's true to claim that the Tories would have also done them (and if so, as badly as Labour did).

Apart from Sizewell B, I don't recall any massive increase in nuclear power under the Tories.

Any changes to the welfare system would not have been needlessly complex (like family credit for instance), albeit I concede they would've put a stop to the 'sick note culture' that we've seen under Labour.

As for privatisation, the PO would have been sold off years ago when the State would have got a good price for it, as opposed to now, the worst possible timing for 100 years (nice one Pete!) Had it been successful like the BP, BT and BG privatisations (rather than say, British Rail), no doubt the PO would now resemble Germany's successful, profitable, privatised PO, rather than the Union-logged, investment-starved mess it currently is.

Foreign policy? It's impossible to imagine anyone making a bigger fist of this than Labour - Thatcher stood up to, and was respected by the Americans afterall, in stark contrast to the embarrassing lapdog figures of Blair and Brown. Iraq and Afghanistan are both as bad as could possibly have transpired and 600,000 people are dead. Looks like we went to war on the basis of a lie. Israel/Palastine worse than ever. We are more hated now than at any time since the Empire. Are you seriously telling me that intelligent, experienced politicians like Clarke, Howard and Hague would have been just as stupid? I think not.

Sleaze? Well, our prospectus for war in Iraq pretty much trumps any toe-sucking indiscretions and the odd back hander or two. Then there's the whole honours system thing.

'nuff said?

Aw come on, I've never denied the PFI is a crock of shite.

Well thanks for meeting me halfway at least Tom, appreciated. I'll do likewise as well; I would entirely agree with your argument that New Labour are not Old Labour, they have indeed shifted right. But this doesn't make them the same as the Tories, far from it, for the reasons I have outlined and many more besides.

As for the Tories buying their way out of their recession through privatisation, it can't be denied that even once sold, these privatised companies generated/continue to generate a vast tax take for the exchequer through Corporation Tax (and NuLab's windfall taxes). Surely not a bad thing, as compared to loss-leader, under-performing public sector utilities generating far less income for the state?

Which rather makes me wonder what Tony Blair was on about* when he said this at the Labour Party conference in October 1995, doesn't it?

Michael Howard always had a hard on for ID Cards, and tried his damnedest to get them introduced when he was Home Secretary. Mercifully, a cabinet revolt stopped him, and only a simpleton would believe that was because of ideological reasons; the simple truth is that Howard knew he was on his way out of power and wanted to foist them onto the British public while he still had the chance, while his colleagues were hopeful that if they avoided shitting in people's mouths, they might get to hang on to their parliamentary seats. Had the Tories been electorally stronger at that stage, we'd all be carrying ID Cards today.

Obviously, Howard got his revenge when he was Leader of the DISTANCE QUOTES Opposition, of course.

So yes, well done, the Conservatives! You staunch defenders of civil liberties, you.

York Notes version of post: BOLLOCKS.



*Further wonder, of course. I mean, obviously there's enough confusing stuff to ponder over in that quote before we get to the Tory record on ID Cards.

I'm sorry, can you not remember the period of 2001-4 where the Tories were just as gung-ho as Labour about Iraq? Clarke, I may grant you, but the others (and you're leaving out IDS, who tried to cozy up to Bush as much as he possibly could) didn't do a thing until it become politically acceptable to do so.

"In time, carrying an ID card will be as natural as carrying a credit card" - Home Secretary, Michael Howard.

(for bonus comedy value, you can also find Shadow Home Secretary Jack Straw decrying ID cards!)

It was part of the plank to remove coal alongside gas-fired stations, but I think that it proved more unpoopular than it was worth, to be honest.

On the other hand, New Labour did get rid of Clause 28 ;)

Sorry, successful for who? Have you had a gas bill recently?

Fuck, the Tories wanted to bring in ID cards just to go to a football match...

Oh sure. They annihilated the coal industry with no plans to replace it...

I decided it was best not to bring that up around Cavey. Could cause complications.

So basically then, one bloke within the Tory Govt. wanted ID cards, and the rest of the cabinet voted him down. End result: No ID cards.

Sounds like sensible, cabinet government to me, in stark contrast to Labour's contemptable 'sofa' government for instance. So your point is Cad?

Nah, I'll side step that particular cheap shot. :)

.... with gas.

'Dash for Gas' etc., not nuclear.

Fair point, I don't necessarily with BG's pricing policy. But that is what Offgas is supposed to be for!

I can't even agree on this Peter; that might be true but:

(a) The Tories would not have had access to all the info/intelligence that the governing party will have had. Perhaps they were spoon-fed the same stuff as the rest of us?

(b) The Tories' natural instinct is to stand firm during times of conflict by default. Unwise perhaps, but nowt compared to actually being responsible for the actual decision to go to war - Labour's decision and theirs alone.

One bloke, who just happened to be the Home Secretary...and ten years on said this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4093583.stm

(can we bring up the Criminal Justice Act? Or how famed liberty hero David Davies was against equality for homesexuals? Bad. As. Each. Other.)