Officially sanctioned live stuff poll, As requested by Clayts

*****MULTI - CHOICE ***** Poll. As in you can, and should, vote for *MORE* *THAN* *ONE*.
A *LOT* more than one, in case I haven't made it clear enough. What sort of Fall fan would only want *one*of these??

OK. Here goes...as requested by Clayts, I have put together a selection of Fall gigs for you to vote on for approved release - see this thread here for details -

http://invisionfree.com/forums/thefall/ind...?showtopic=7491

First things first - I don't claim to the biggest expert on live recordings, I have just been more vocal on this subject than some.

Feel free to reply suggesting gigs I have missed off.

So, this covers some questions you may have -

Q. Why are some years / periods not represented?

A. Some years are represented well enough by mixing desk, FM radio and / or official releases - in my personal opinion. Hence I did not concentrate much on audience recordings for that year.

The recent years have been fairly well covered by official releases. In all honesty I'm not so knowledgeable on bootlegs for this period as I felt I had enough official live stuff...even the '99 gig was on a recommendation from a trusted source.

I feel others will be able to make their own minds up about the best gigs that I have missed out. For the record my own personal choice based on the gigs I have seen from recent years would be Brighton 2005.

Why not post details of any gig *you* feel should have been in this selection?

Q. Why are these mostly audience tapes?

A. Radio gigs have been missed out as licensing difficulties are likely to be difficult to sort out in the short term, if ever.

A couple of mixing desk gigs are featured, but whittling this list down to 15 (I couldn't get it down to the requested 10! ) meant I had to be very choosy about what I included.

Q. What was the criteria for these selections?

A. I am well aware there are some great gigs which are not so hot when it comes to sound quality.

For the purposes of this first selection I struck a balance between performance and sound quality. Some mixing desk tapes didn't make the list...however for any who worry about that, many of these recordings are as good as, or better than many mixing desk tapes in terms of sound. Performance - assuming any get the go ahead, buy them and judge for yourselves!

Q. Why is the list so crap?

A. If you think that, we can't agree on everything...try voting for one, there must be something you like, and suggest something I didn't include. Perhaps we'll get a consensus on stuff I missed out.

Remember - I've done this as a favour to help. The administrators, third party and MES will have the final say as far as I understand.


Notes

Canterbury University 17/8/82 - while these are not listed in the gigography, high quality recordings exist which include the encores Solicitor In Studio, Hip Priest and I'm Into CB.

"Vienna" 1986 - this is not necessarily Vienna after all. The tape concerned is a mixing desk one which may well have originally come from MES and Brix ... at one point the tape cuts to a TV theme tune which has a rhythm which is uncannily similar to Haf Found Borman. The setlist is not the same as the only Vienna gig listed in the gigography from that year, but it circulated as 'Vienna?' a few years back, and for the sake of this poll such finer details can be sorted out in due course.

EDIT 30/6/05:
Got advised on a PM "that Vienna 86 tape - I've had a dig through my stuff, and I've got it on a CD here entitled Posthof, Linz, Austria 10/10/86. The gigography backs it up"




Reading 26/8/90 - if this is selected, the recording should ideally be sourced from the two best stereo recordings. Clayts - I might send off a disc for your consideration anyway.

The gigography below may be of assistance in your voting -
http://www.visi.com/fall/gigography/live.html

For further info, the thread linked to by my sig may be of assistance too.

Happy voting!

OK. Thanks to Sudost, here are the tracklists for each gig...

Eindhoven Effenaar 13/6/80
Stop Mithering > How I Wrote Elastic Man / City Hobgoblins / In My Area / Totally Wired / No Xmas for John Quays / Impression of J. Temperance / Flat of Angles / New Puritan / A Figure Walks / Dice Man / New Face in Hell

London Queen Mary's Ballroom 5/2/81 - mixing desk
Your Heart Out / Totally Wired / Leave the Capitol / An Older Lover / New Face in Hell / Middle Mass / C'n'C-s Mithering>Crap Rap #19 / Fiery Jack / Jawbone and the Air Rifle / Slates, Slags, etc. / Fit and Working Again / Prole Art Threat / Impression of J. Temperance / Container Drivers

Canterbury University 17/8/82
Impression of J. Temperance / Room to Live / The Classical / Hexen Definitive-Strife Knot / Look Know / Lie Dream of a Casino Soul / I Feel Voxish / Tempo House / Fantastic Life / Marquis Cha-Cha / Prole Art Threat / Backdrop / City Hobgoblins / Mere Pseud Mag Ed
ENCORES (presumably missed off one recording) Solictor In Studio / Hip Priest / I'm Into CB

Amsterdam Kombi 8/2/83
Words of Expectation / Room to Live / Ludd Gang / Tempo House / Kicker Conspiracy / And This Day / Hexen Definitive-Strife Knot / I Feel Voxish / Mere Pseud Mag Ed / Pilsner Trail / Garden / Marquis Cha-Cha / Container Drivers / Lie Dream of a Casino Soul / The Man Whose Head Expanded

Manchester Hacienda 29/6/84
Smile / Lie Dream of a Casino Soul / Craigness / 2 x 4 / God Box / Kicker Conspiracy / CREEP / Lay of the Land / Elves / Oh Brother / Garden / Hey Marc Riley / I Feel Voxish / Pat Trip Dispenser

Friday, October 10 1986
Posthof, Linz, Austria not "Vienna" 1986 - Mixing desk (see notes above) Barmy / City Hobgoblins / US 80's-90's / Terry Waite Sez / Gross Chapel-GB Grenadiers / Mr. Pharmacist / Lucifer over Lancashire / Shoulder Pads / Gut of the Quantifier / Slang King / R.O.D. / Prole Art Threat / L.A.

Astoria May 14/5/87
Australians in Europe / Shoulder Pads / Mark'll Sink Us / There's a Ghost in My House / Guest Informant / Frenz / Mr. Pharmacist / Haf Found Bormann / Hey Luciani / US 80's-90's / Get a Hotel / Lucifer over Lancashire / Living Too Late / Bombast / C.R.E.E.P. / Hot Aftershave Bop / Fiery Jack / Cruisers Creek

Manchester Free Trade Hall 13/7/89
Hit The North / I'm Frank / Bremen Nacht / Bill is Dead / Deadbeat Descendant / Wrong Place, Right Time / Littlest Rebel / Pinball Machine / Mere Pseud Mag Ed / Big New Prinz / US 80s-90s / Guest Informant / Carry Bag Man / Mr Pharmacist / Cab It Up

Sydney Coogie Bay Hotel 14/7/90
Zagreb / Tuff Life Boogie / Jerusalem / Sing Harpy / I'm Frank / Life Just Bounces / Deadbeat Descendant / Bill Is Dead / Black Monk Theme / Telephone Thing / Hit the North / White Lightning / British People in Hot Weather / L.A. / Wrong Place, Right Time / Popcorn Double Feature / US 80's-90's / Carry Bag Man

Reading 26/8/90
You Haven't Found It Yet (instr.) / Arms Control Poseur / Blood Outta Stone / Black Monk Theme / Hilary / Hit the North / Bill is Dead / Wrong Place, Right Time / Big New Prinz / Zagreb / Life Just Bounces / Bombast / White Lightning / British People in Hot Weather / Jerusalem

Hull University 8/12/91
The Mixer / And Therein / Idiot Joy Showland / Edinburgh Man / Mr. Pharmacist / Gentlemen's Agreement / Free Range / Big New Prinz / Return / Pittsville Direkt / The War Against Intelligence / I'm Frank / The Business School of Business School / Hilary / Hit the North / White Lightning / Shiftwork

Bradford University 24/11/94
M5 / Behind the Counter / Ladybird Green Grass / Reckoning / 15 Ways / Feeling Numb / Free Range / Mere Pseud Mag Ed / Don't Call Me Darling / Glam-Racket / Life Just Bounces / I'm Not Satisfied / Big New Prinz / L.A. / Dead Beat Descendant

Cannock Prince Of Wales 27/9/96
10 Houses of Eve / He Pep / M5 / Powder Keg / Cheetham Hill / The Mixer / Oleano / The Chiseleres / Spinetrak / ? / Behind the Counter / Das Vultur Ans Ein Nutter-Wain / 15 Ways / US 80's-90's / The Joke / Birthday / Don't Call Me Darling / ? / DIY Meat

Manchester Rock World 14/5/97
Crack House / He Pep / Powder Keg / Plug Myself In / Cheetham Hill / Kimble / 10 Houses of Eve / I'm Going to Spain / Spinetrak / Feeling Numb / Everybody But Myself / Glam-Racket / M5 / Oleano / Masquerade / Behind the Counter / Lie Dream of a Casino Soul

Salisbury Arts Centre 7/5/99
Touch Sensitive / Spencer Must Die / F-'Oldin' Money / He Pep / Antidotes / This Perfect Day / Hurricane Edward / Shake Off / And Therein / Mad.Men-Eng.Dog / Jet Boy / On My Own / Anecdotes in B# / Ol' Gang / Big New Prinz / The Joke

I'll happily go up to the mid 80's.

I will likely (well...definitely) buy whatever you put up for sale, but I would purchase 80s stuff first. Someone somewhere suggested on this board several months back a giant box set of all known Fall gigs...one step closer are we?

Not me personally!

Like I said, it's down to the powers that be, I'm just helping out.

I too will buy the lot.

I've added a couple of questions to the remaster, reissue thread about gigs, that cropped up in my mind while preparing this poll (see link below).

However as this poll does not currently go beyond 1999, this seems like the right place to raise these matters...

One or two people alluded to recording Brighton April 3, 2005 Concorde 2...did it come out well? It was a great gig...in my personal opinion that would be a great one for release if it did. As stated further up, up to the powers that be if it does of course.

Opinions on 2000-2005 encouraged...again can't speak for everyone concerned in this, but MES would presumably approve of more recent stuff. (If I'm speaking out of turn on anything Clayts - feel free to 'mod' my posts)

I have never heard any unofficial gig recordings by The Fall. In the past I was always put off bootlegs by the utter crappiness of the sound quality (I'm talking about stuff I heard in the 80s that was recorded on walkmans - I literally haven't heard an unofficial live recording in 20 years!). But it sounds like we'll have a good selection of decent quality tapes to choose from.

Obviously I bow to the superior knowledge of others and trust that whatever gets selected, it will be great because it will be selected by people from this forum who know what they're talking about.

Getting quite excited about all this...

Me too!

Interesting results so far...

Vote for as many as you would like!
Eindhoven Effenaar 13/6/80 [ 5 ] [9.80%]
London Queen Mary's Ballroom 5/2/81 - mixing desk [ 7 ] [13.73%]
Canterbury University 17/8/82 [ 4 ] [7.84%]
Amsterdam Kombi 8/2/83 [ 3 ] [5.88%]
Manchester Hacienda 29/6/84 [ 3 ] [5.88%]
"Vienna" 1986 - Mixing desk (see notes below) [ 4 ] [7.84%]
Astoria May 14/5/87 [ 5 ] [9.80%]
Manchester Free Trade Hall 13/7/89 [ 2 ] [3.92%]
Sydney Coogie Bay Hotel 14/7/90 [ 1 ] [1.96%]
Reading 26/8/90 [ 3 ] [5.88%]
Hull University 8/12/91 [ 2 ] [3.92%]
Bradford University 24/11/94 [ 2 ] [3.92%]
Cannock Prince Of Wales 27/9/96 [ 2 ] [3.92%]
Manchester Rock World 14/5/97 [ 5 ] [9.80%]
Salisbury Arts Centre 7/5/99 [ 3 ] [5.88%]
Total Votes: 51

I am surprised the live 87 show does better than other 80's shows aside from the 1981 gig...maybe its reputation proceeds it? I do hope one of the mod's has got some wacky hi-tech equipment or access to some if this gig gets approval...I do like the Astoria gig but it's got the tiniest whistle going through it. Sorry not trying to put anyone off that one!

As for Sydney 1990...only one vote (mine)

That's technically one of the best recordings there in terms of sound quality, like the Hull 91 show...to be honest they're all pretty great quality as boots go otherwise I woudn't have picked them...maybe more people will express interest in these gigs, they're great stuff. Ah well, early days, and I can't tell people what to like...

I'd only ever go for soundboard stuff. 'Nuff said.

Take it from me -Mr S, Salf - Sydney 1990 and Hull 91 sound just like soundboards.

I'm not just saying that because I don't think they've garnered enough votes yet. They really do.

Vote for 'em, buy 'em, and if you don't like 'em - sell 'em to me *, I'll give them to an impoverished casual Fall fan I know. That's my pledge.

(* This only really works if the hard-copy option comes into play...CD-R's being sold too, for a smidgen more to cover costs).

But thier not, are they?
So they'll be easy to find elsewhere..... I want stuff thats not already done the rounds on the trades.... Pointless otherwise

Well sorry to spoil it for you...the mixing desk ones you voted for have been done the rounds too.

I see your point...look at this way - officially sanctioned they will be from the best tapes, mastered to the highest standards...and while a cynic might say, on someone's home equipment...well that bit's beyond my control - and hasn't been announced yet...if it is the case home equipment can be pretty good these days. Also I'd trust a home enthusiast more than record company engineers bowing to what record exec's think the public wants, too. In my past experience in trading, for every good quality recording, there would be a good recording ruined by poor equipment, high recording levels - well into the CD-R age too this was.

Perhaps some new stuff, or stuff which is high quality that has not been traded before or much, might well emerge.

However I was asked to poll from stuff I knew about as a possible starting point, and whatever emerges, it would be wrong to assume any mixing desk recording will beat an audience tape - not always the case I have found. Some of those Voiceprint mixing desk CD's are hardly high points amongst Fall live recordings...

Anyway 'rant' over.

More votes and opinions welcomed...

Stranger - I'm on your side on this one, belive it or not.

The main probs people seem to have had with the trade section of the site is that they've had nothing to up as trades - I've personally excepted rare stuff by other artists in exchange for Fall gigs (I know others have too).

This way the site can help non-bootleg owners catch up with the best stuff previously floating around at a very reasonable price

What I suppose I'm getting at is that it would be nice for Mark and co. to root through thier own stuff and dig out stuff that's never done the rounds before - But all in good time, huh?

Another idea -
When I put up my review of Manchester Poly 1980 I got a shedload of PM's asking for a copy....
Maybe if someone like yourself, and others, could put up short reviews of each gig on sale it would help shift more copies, thus providing the site incentive to continue to put up gigs as well as hopefully bringing more money to Mark and the band.
I'll gladly review anything I personally own as well as supply any of my better quality bootlegs for sale on the site.

Keep up the good work people

Gaz

Cheers Salf.

Good ideas there - it's up to the mod's but they make sense to me.

Glad to see the votes are going well - but everyone must vote in this! I'll keep a close watch, on this poll of mine...

That 'Vienna' tape setlist in full, to help anyone work out the real venue / date.

Barmy / City Hobgoblins / US80's - 90's / Terry Waite Sez / Gross Chapel / Mr Pharmacist / Lucifer Over Lancashire / Gut Of The Quantifier (interrupted by MES & Brix recording TV theme - same beat as Bormann) / Slang King / Slang King continued / Prole Art Thread / LA

Have you tried looking through the gigography? (obvious question, but you never know)

Thought about doing it, didn't bother.

The possibility of duplicated setlists is slim, I know, but since the gigography doesn't always reveal little details about whether tapes are mixing desk ones or not, thought it best to leave it to an expert who knows their stuff, and I am sure there are a few about...

A vote for each.
Three quid a go I'll buy them all anyway.

Excellent selections Stranger.

Is that Rockworld gig, the one where they played the song Crackhouse? They did two consecuitive nights there and I seem to recall a member of D.O.S.E. on stage with them (Keiron??) for this gig and they played a storming version of Crackhouse, which I think was a D.O.S.E. song.

I was at the Salisbury gig too, there were booming accoustics in that venue, it was an old church converted into an arts centre.

Well played Stranger!

Thanks auto, I did agonise over getting this down to a shortlist, to get a cream of the non-radio gig crop, at least based on my knowledge.

yes, that does seem correct - it is the second night. The first night, 13/5/87 is great too, but 14/5 had slightly more tracks I liked, and yes it includes Crackhouse.

Yes I was tipped off about the Salibury gig - seems that was on the ball.

No probs, took me a while but it was worth it.

I'm still in two minds about recent years...have they been covered pretty well by official DVD's and CD's, or as it's recent Fall, should it be covered more? I tend towards the latter view...I noted from the download swapping thread that Camden 2001 exists as a mixing desk recording. I was there and I seem to remember it was a good gig...certainly seemed well liked from the comments on that thread, so maybe that could make up the number for more recent gigs.

Still trying to find out whether Brighton 2005 has been well recorded...

I'm a bit confused about how to vote on this one. I don't own any of them but would like to own all of them. So do I vote for them all or none at all?

Having heard the version of crackhouse played on the 14th, I don't think its much to get excited about. I reckon MES once had, and might still have, a high quality recording of this gig, as it's where the beginning of Levitate's 'Everybody But Myself' is taken from.

That intro on Levitate used Alex's audience DAT recording of the Rockworld gig.

I didn't know that - it sounds much cleaner than the bootleg I have.

I sounded pretty confident in that statement, didn't I? I really should check my copy when I get home. I have a cassette dub of the DAT in question.

Well, no point in voting for them all, as that gives the mods no idea where your preference lies. I guess vote for the ones in the eras you would most like to hear gigs from - I voted early-mid 80's and mid to late 90's, ticking all relevant boxes.