WOW! a great time to be in banking yeah? what with banks and mortgage companies falling arse over tit all over the place, they can rest in peace that the tax payers will prop them up if they get into difficulty.

so, has capitalism run its course? does it work? or is it just a smokescreen for the more fortunate to get money from tax payers via the back door?

is capitalism just a scam?

Possibly. But I think democracy will cop it first. Lower and middle classes are losing their value as a market (too expensive to keep) so the historical anomaly of a reasonable wealthy existence and having something to say for us humble folk may be coming to an end.

People will slowly get used to having their rights being taken away and by the time the material squeeze kicks in there's nowhere to complain about it.

Resources will last a bit longer if they don't need to be shared by so many people, so capitalism may endure but on a smaller scale.

That's my tea leaves talking.

People have had a lot of rights taken away over the last 10 years - but no one seems to have noticed!

It's a bummer. For too many people it's not high on the priority list.
Nothing to get excited about.

Yes .... I agreed with yr post btw.

I work in a tiny little record shop. People come in throwing their weight about... asking for refunds on £2 cds (brand new)... cuz it 'wasn't what they thought it was'. That's 'consumer rights' - everybody's got rights... and taking it out on a little shop is how they exercise those rights...
but when it comes to monumental and hard-fought-for freedoms being taken away... then nobody bats an eyelid. Strange.

which rights have I had taken away?

well - for instance you can now be imprisoned with no court case. 1000 years of Habeas Corpus overturned.

i agree with that fully. witness my previous rantings about the drunken protests against the ban on drinking on public transport recently.

sadly people tend to exercise their rights in what they consider important, and this rather displays what fat headed, gormless gimps we've become.

i reckon we need to renationalise pretty much everything. this became apparent to me when i tried to book a fucking train ticket this morning. it was fucking kafka-esque. the long and short was that the price advertised online was not actually the price for the ticket - unless you bought it from a ticket booth - but then the online discounts wouldnt apply.

what we need is a dose of socialism - and i claim my MI5 (CIA/FBI) file! ;)

It may come as a surprise to regular readers on here, but I'm going to say yes. :D

BradX and A Serious Man,

You've made me dust down some books off the book shelf when you say 'capitalism' has run its course.

I remembered that I had read an intriguing book by an American - W. Cleon Skonson - who wrote "The Naked Capitalist" in 1970, and inferred that international bankers wanted to remake the world on socialistic lines.

Sounds preposterous, but there's a quote by Skinner in "About Behaviorism (1974: 222)" that often makes me re-think about the way society and culture develops. He said "The important thing is that institutions last longer than individuals and arrange contingencies which take a reasonably remote future into account."

Institutions are often funded by international bankers, as are NGO's. Perhaps they have a vested interest in preserving power for themselves and to hell with the rest; it makes sense to take 'a reasonably remote future into account'. The Skinner quote makes me wonder how far in the future do institutions plan for?

5 years max probably. But the Soviets had 5 Year Plans and 13 Year Plans, didn't they?

It's unlikely, but maybe a collapse is being allowed to happen? The increased surveillance might well be not for 'terror' by Arabs, but because of 'terror' from people who can't eat. :huh:

Over-exaggeration, perhaps.

But back to Skonson who goes all the way back to Ruskin - and his obesssion with Plato's 'Republic'. He quotes Kenneth Clark, from his Ruskin Today (1964) as saying that Ruskin read it 'every day'. It *is* a great book, but every day might seem a little too much :o But it is Plato's "ideal" society which supposedly impressed Ruskin (who is photographed giving the 'lion's paw') where marriage would be eliminated by all means and people would be induced to believe government-indoctrinated falsehoods...!

Skonson (p.38) claims Ruskin "had persuaded the still existing Rhodes-Milner Round Table Groupthat the way to federate (globalise?) the world was along socilalistic lines, i.e. by having all property, industry, agriculture, communication, transportation, education and political affairs in the hand of a small cadre of financially-controlled political leaders who would organise the world and its peoples in a way which would compel everyone to do what was good for the new, world-society."

Hardly what is happening. But 'global warming' + 'failing economy' + 'riots' = lead to authoritarian rule? Controlled economy and controlled society?

Who knows? Probably not.

But at least you've got me thinking! And dusting off old books.

Cheers,
Grimoire.

that you would comeup with this post is an excellent reason why you should read naomi klein's "the shock doctrine", unless you have already?

..although by her equation, the conditions you refer to can be exploited to implement a "free" market, not regulation. of course, if we're talking in terms of plutocratic rule, and some of the above posts would suggest that we are, then perhaps a privatised economy, disestablished from national central banking, is the most controlled of all known models, as chaotic as it might seem to us bottom feeders...

Some people here are confusing capitalism with democracy, or the erosion of democracy. Rights etc.

Capitalism is designed to encourage enterprise and rewards those who succeed.

Communism is designed so that everyone gets the same regardless of enterprise, thus crushing enterprise.

Socialism combines the two and tries to encourage enterprise and reward, whilst collecting more taxes from this reward to ensure that the least capable have a reasonable standard of living.

It seems that the UK has taken a step too far towards capitalism and away from socialism, in the sense that there are not enough checks in place to stamp out the blatant profiteering that is now rife, particularly in the banking sector.

However, I would not want to go back to the 1970's and the days of demarcation and trade unions that argued themselves into a black hole while the employers their members worked for, and the rest of the country, slowly went bust because of it.

I've known capitalism is just a scam for ages which is why I am so fond of ripping off The Man.

Has anyone read up on Ayn Rand's Objectivism? That has a huge gaping flaw slap dab in the middle of her proposition that laissez-faire capitalism is the only way to be, it is so raw and gaping that I can't see why anyone even gives her the time of day; IE money does not objectively exist.

:applaud:

I think this will become an inevitability as the energy companies continue to take the piss and Russia cuts us off. I can even see some of the mines re-opening as a short-term domestic fix until alternative energy plans kick in.

Mind you, methane in Wales.. promising.. :thumbsup:

No no Snowey. It was Capitalism bust this country. Thatcher closed down our industries, not the Unions. She's the reason our high streets are awash with moneylenders and all the same companies now sell us our food.

I love capitalism

are you CEO of ICBC?

No .. I was joking .... I've made it very clear a million times on this board that I hate it .

i'm a democratic communist i suppose. i think the people need to tweak communism to fine tune it to the majority needs of the day... i don't think it should stay completely static... i don't believe in socialism at all... it keeps capitalist urges alive... even if it dilutes them a little.

Now, how can I put this tactfully...................................

:D

Imagine a Warehouse, with three activities:

Goods Receipters
Put Awayers
Pickers

In the "Good old days" when the unions had the power to interfere with the running of the warehouse, these jobs would be demarcated. When the lorries came in the goods receipters would be busting a gut, whilst the other two went home early.

When the lorries had gone, the put awayers would be busting a gut, whilst the goods receipters had endless mugs of tea.

When there was a rush of orders from customers, the pickers would sweat whilst the other two played 5 a-side in the yard.

After all that Union demarcation bollocks was got rid of, all three groups of people helped each other out when they were busy. They got all of the work done, and on time. The warehouse became more efficient, so the price of the product stayed low, ensuring that it was competitive so people still bought it, and not the one imported from Japan. The business flourished and the warehouse people retained their jobs, and were rewarded for their efficiency via a productivity scheme.

Amen.

And there ends tonight's story.

snoweyuk was reading from Enid Blyton's Noddy & The Happy Workers

Workers must have the right to properly disrupt their workplaces when treated badly, otherwise they are effectively powerless. The UK is reverting to a feudal system, if it ever wasn't.

Then two thirds were laid off and then the work got outsourced to China after the third that were left busted a gut 24/7 for a year.

Then the unemployed ones defaulted on their mortgages and the entire banking edifice went crawling around asking for £££zillions in state intervention.

But hey, the goods were 10% cheaper for a while.

Anyway, to answer the question, no. It has survived worse than this. It will continue to boom and bust (remember that the next time it booms especially), that is its way, don't matter what all the economics experts do, they always fail, the markets get exhausted, Sort of like pyramid schemes.

w/o taking sides, I would just like people to remember that the capitalists themselves do a good job of quashing entrepeneurship, idling workers, and creating oligarchy and monopolies. Large markets are manipulated by those with inside information; quicker access to information; corrupt practices of diverse type; ability to convert to law practices hitherto illegal; and the ability to co-opt regulatory agencies.
The largest[for decades] USA corporation, General Motors, was convicted of colluding with manufacturers of gasoline and cement & macadam to destroy public light rail transportation known variously as streetcars, trollies and trams depending on where you lived. 200+ cities lost their rail commuter transport through this illegal conspiracy. Only buses were allowed to be part of municipal transportation under this criminal scheme.
General Motors, convicted, was ordered to pay a fine of $5000. They did and continued their illegal ways and no more actions were brought against this cabal.

Now, how can I put this tactfully...................................

:D

Imagine a Bank, with three activities:

Looking after peoples money
Lending people money
Paying the big cheeses in the bank big fucking bonuses

Now, say the bank looks after the people's money by lending it to companies to start up, buy houses, boob jobs, etc. The charges they make earn the bank income and the big cheeses in the bank get big fucking bonuses.

Now, say the companies fold (either because their labour forces insist on demarcation, or manufacture is shipped off to China), people decide that they can't afford to pay for their houses, boob jobs go saggy etc. The government bails the bank out and the big cheeses in the bank get big fucking bonuses.

Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac, nationalisation, land of the free? Erm how does that work then?

I strongly agree, but not at the expense of the workers themselves. This was the exaggerated point I was making, highlighting when Trade Unions went beyond their remit, and to the long term detriment of their members.

With regards to outsourcing, it wouldn't apply to a warehouse (not cost effective), but sadly it does apply to other businesses. Its a tough one, but will always be an issue as long as standards of living across the world differ, and there is a world economy reliant on international trade.

To respond to this threat to UK jobs, its important to stay ahead in the technology race, and sell these foreign workers high tech goods made in the UK that can't be outsourced.

I don't think capitalism, or watered down capitalism as practiced in the UK, has run its course. I would struggle to come up with a better alternative, frankly. Its the nature of man to need motivation to excel. Its also not perfect, but better than it was when certain trade unions behaviours added unnecessary costs into UK businesses making them uncompetitive with businesses in other countries.

:lol:

This country is fucked

;)

Seriously though. banking is built on trust. Its built on the fact that banks can lend the money people invest, on the basis that they wont withdraw it all. Take the trust away, by lending money inappropriately, and people will rush to take their money and go back to storing it under the floorboard on the stairs. Without the deposits, the banks are fucked, and so are we.

O snoweyuk -- when you sell your product to government it is not capitalism at all, watered down or otherwise.

Given that workers massively outnumber bosses/owners surely it is their prerogative to fuck themselves up? That's democracy, isn't it?

Most of the work in my area being off shored is the minimum wage non-union work - no need for warehouses when there are no wares to house either. BRilliant for the consumer though, that Tommy Tippee cup that was made in Newcastle can now be transported across the Earth and it still costs 8p less than when it was made here. How efficient!

It's not as if the people losing their jobs are then going to help make sure UK PLC stays ahead in the technological global marketplace either.

I didn't realise you worked for the government Cleanville Tziabatz. Well you learn something every day.........

From your question, the implication is that we are living in a Capitalist system and have been doing for quite a time - presumably since the early days of the last Tory Government.

Well, according to well known Socialist pin-up, Mr G Brown of Downing Street, we've now got full employment and are spending more on the National Health and public services than ever before. It's got to be good, eh?

Nationalisation isn't going to make things cheaper since the cost of living is being driven by the cost of fuel. Since it is largely the socialists and those to the left of them that are demanding ever higher taxes on fuel, then this situation will not go away if the capitalist system folded.

And as an counter to the definitions of Capitalism, Communism and Socialism, the reality is that Socialists would have a small amount of people in work being taxed a lot to raise revenue, whereas the capitalist system is to have a lot of people in work being taxed a little - which ultimately draws in more revenue. Must work, otherwise where would Gordon be getting all his money from?

This snippet from the Times earlier this year:

There's half a billion quid that could be cut from people's bills or their taxes were the utilities state owned.

Oi!

They would soon employ 25,000 more people to make life easier for the management in terms of making sure the work could be completed without having to think about smarter working methods because they were not competing with anyone.

The management would still pay themselves huge amounts of money for running a monopoly, like this chap, who sadly passed away last week:

Dennis Rooke

On the other hand, not worried about the impact of competition, they would pay the workers a smaller wage thus not attracting the best staff who would work smarter.

On the bright side, there would be a few more jobs for Chauffuers, and catering companies would make lots of money as the management treated themselves to big, free lunch buffets whilst they held their unnecessarily long meetings, and of course, all meetings would entitle the attendees to free coffee and biccies.

Eventually they would re-introduce managment only toilets......

Been there, seen that and it can kiss its ass goodbye as far as I am concerned....

How are you Cleanville Tziabatz? Been a while...

Is the US government working you hard?

:devil:

I don't have to "imagine" anything young feller-me-lad. I was a union activist during the 1970s. Society was fairer and people were better off in terms of the relation of their wages to the cost of living.

We also had powerful and successful industries we don't have now.

I have a poster of Gordon Brown on my wall, in a mock-up of that famous Athena pose...who doesn't?!?
Mmm, Socialism....(not what it used to be)...

Show me the stats.........

As most people's greatest outgoing is their housing, let's look at house prices:

http://www.mortgageguideuk.co.uk/blog/hous...-prices-income/

For instance:

Apart from a very short period when the banks went beserk and got us into this current mess you would never be loaned 4.8 times your income on a mortgage.

A corollary of this is that people who can't afford to borrow for a home end up buying one for somebody who can, further driving the polarisation of wealth taking place in the UK. This wouldn't be so bad if we had a decent amount of social housing but dear old Maggie flogged most of it.

Plus you didn't have to wait 67 years to get a council house back in the day....

edit: oh, I see you made that point. As you were....

Our economy is too reliant on the tertiary sector.

Real wealth is generated through manufacturing.