My question is this, and I'd like a honest answer - Would you question my faith if I were a Muslim or would the current political climate make you re-consider?

The reason I ask is that a Muslim guy I know, Ozzy, told me recently that whenever his own faith came up he has found people treading very carefully where as at one time people would have jokingly taken the piss or questioned his devotion to something they themselves thought of as utter nonsense.

Whenever I mention the fact I'm a Christian on this forum I always seem to end up defending my personal faith. I never get stick for it, don't get me wrong, it's just that I always end up having to declare that

A: I'm of sound mind.

B: I picked this path myself (Family are not in the least religious).

C: That I know how many wars there have been in the name Christianity but that (shockingly) I have never taken part in any of them.

D: I never judge anybody for there sexual habits, moral codes etc etc (unlike a lot of Christians, it must be said). Live and let live, you know?

If I was a Muslim would I still be made to feel the need to justify my stance?

To answer your question, no, I wouldn't question your faith if you were Muslim. I wouldn't question your religion in the past, the present or the future though, so I don't think it has anything to do with the current political climate.

Your other point is more interesting. I've noticed that atheists often display as much religious zeal as any theists, more so even. And I specifically use the word "religious" for their beliefs, because that's exactly what they are.

Strange, that. You're right though.

I feel I must point out that I myself would not question anothers religion now or prior to finding my own faith. That is unless, say, they were unhinged in some way (God is telling me to kill) ie blinded to their own mental illness.

I find this whole Muslim paranoia really quite disturbing, to be honest. I understand the fear that extremism (is that a word?) brings, don't get me wrong, but the genral ignorance regarding people of this faith is really quite shocking.

I've lost count of the number of people (mainly the good ol' taxi driver) I have heard sprouting nonsense...

I treat all religions equally, with the same utter contempt

Just for curiosity's sake, on what grounds do you say this? You see, your post reads awfully like a declaration of faith.

As an aside, hopefully because this is in the polls section rather than general chat, the usual suspects won't find it, so this thread might remain unlocked.

It's been a long time since I have been a forum regular yet, I see, some things never change...

Gaz, do you question a Muslim's faith? (I answered yes, by the way - I think all things are to be questioned, in the nicest possible way).

Coo-eee! Yes I have. (on edit- if by "question my faith" you mean "apply logic and reason to a set of groundless beliefs")...
Of course atheism isn't a religion, the clue is in the name.

This came up the other day at the pub. A friend of mine says it's that Muslims need better PR. Whenever English football fans run amok abroad our media brand them animals and everybody shakes their heads and says it makes them ashamed to be English. So when there's an atrocity committed in the name of Islam we're looking toward Muslim leaders for the same response, but it's never quite forthcoming. He says, because there's never this outright condemnation, when you meet a Muslim you can't help but wonder, 'Are you secretly glad when the bombs go off?'

It does, however, have its fair share of zealots.


Everyone should constantly question their beliefs, whether they be of a spiritual nature or not.

I don't question anyone's faith, unless they start trying to convert me. It's kind of rude.

I once argued with a Muslim bloke who was saying that Muslims don't like dogs because they spread disease. I said that was bollocks. If you catch something, you've likely caught it off a human - very rarely a dog. But still, that was a practical thing rather than a faith thing, I think.

yes, I point and laugh at Muslims just as much as I do Christians.




seriously though, I'm generally not over keen on questioning people's religion. If they have faith in "god" then no amount of evidence (regarding, for example, evolution) is going to change their mind.

Faith isn’t predicated on evidence. It is nonsensical to ask anyone to provide evidence of something they have ‘faith’ in.

Lots of things have zealots. Pop groups or (fuck nose why) football....and why should "faith" be excused the provision of evidence when this happens in no other walk of life?

The one time I happen to have questioned a Muslim's faith (as per ATC, I don't go up to them and try and convert them though if they come up to me the wrath of bombast etc) was over the vexed question of vegetarianism. This Muslim woman was saying that they thanked the animals and thanked their god and then ate them, I was rather of the opinion that they'd rather not be eaten. I know I wouldn't.

But it is rather pointless. If 'faith' can't be evidenced, to ask for a it is futile.

it's not so much that, it's that they ignore any good evidence that contradicts their faith. (DNA, fossils etc)

I see religion in the same light as terrorists, frightening people to act in a paticular way or believe something or else, I don't like being threatened, do you get it, if you don't beleive in there faith or the same things they do you'll, A; be blown up or B; burn in hell. The thought that little children are born in sin and only contact with the church can save them, what can you say contempt seems quite moderate. This is the same church that would see its clergy fuck them and cover it up, what nice people religious leaders are, and thats be side the fact that its all bollocks along with father christmas, superman and the tooth fairy. Oh and its not just christian who abuse children Thai buddist monks were caught a few years back too

Yes mate its a declaration of faith, everything is, I have faith in my children , in Mrs Hex en Hour, that my car will get me home and that Macclesfield Town FC will never make it into the Premiership

I'm not an atheist or an agnostic...
I don't believe in "god" either.

Nor am I a nihilist.

Sorry, Gaz, that didn't answer the question...

I wouldn't question anyone's faith...unless I genuinely thought it was detrimental to them (I'm thinking mainly of cults, etc), but even then it would have to be a pretty extreme reaction to someone's faith for me to actually try to dissuade someone of their position.
It doesn't really bother me, either way.

If you're talking about the creationists who believe God fashioned the world and everything in it some five million years ago then of course. I don't see any scientific reason that could proves God doesn't exist or that he didn't set the cosmic parameters that allowed the Universe to develop.

I have to say I find it highly unlikely.

The problem is, the god most people believe in isn't the hands off long distance essententially pointless type god, but the interventionist, jealous, no bummers type god.

To answer the question, in person, because I was well bought up, I would have difficulty challenging anyone about their religon.

It depends what someone means when they say "I am a christian" or "I am a muslim". Generally I get annoyed when people tell me that, coz I cant help but think they are implying that they are more virtuous than me - if they were to show me acts of charity and good work they had done then I might be prepared to believe that they are, but merely stating it does not make it so.

The only perceptable difference between my life and those of christians I know is that they go to church and they pray. Most of them are certainly are not distinguished by their efforts in the community - as far as I can tell, they spend alot of time supporting other fellow christians, rather than those that might actually need the support.

I think all in all its a pretty meaningless phrase, unless it is backed-up by action.

How could they not be? :whistle: :P

It's their business.
if they want to make it mine they I question them.

2 recent ideas have come past me... ask if the prostelatite (is that the word?? the person trying to influence me) if they believe in all of the gods from all of the religions in the world.
Probably they will say no.
Tell them we are agreed then, except I believe in one less.

And teh 2nd was a headline from the Onion, which went along the lines of " Ancient Middle Easte nomadic tribe's myths taken at face value"

Still, a thank you is nice. :mellow:

This is a little strong imho, but I absolutely know what you mean. Due to not being the sharpest card in the pack and low entry requirements in the humanities, I studied Theology and Philosophy at University - well, attempted to anyway - and I couldn't help but note the massive difference between (just to confine ourselves to Christianity) the Jesus of the gospels, and the Jesus of popular belief. The Jesus of the gospels is a chill guy with an awesome reserve of wisdom who hangs out with political revolutionaries and is nice to women.

On the other hand, the Jesus of popular belief is often used to deter any kind of change to the status quo whatsoever, condemn any "alternative" lifestyle, and so on. To draw an analogy, it's like if the Fall were popularly believed to be wine bar jazz act!

Good luck with Macclesfield Town. I'm a City fan and I've just woken up to a nightmare.

------------------------------------

I don't know how to quote from two separate posts in the same post, but in answer, atheism is a religion in the same way anarchism is a political theory. Atheism even has it's own commandments.

1. Thou shalt not believe in God
2. Thou shalt make graven images and take the piss at ever available opportunity
3. Thou shalt use reason to try and show people of faith the error of their ways

...and so on.

Cheeky sod. <_<

I've got as many virtues as the most other people; the difference being that I have the vices to go with them.

1) That makes it not a religion....(unless "not trainspotting" is a hobby. Have we been here before? Yes we have!)
2) Atheism stance on graven images is neutral.
3) You can do this in every other walk of life. "Faith" on the other hand....see above.

What haven't we had yet? "Hitler was an atheist" (he wasn't) ummmm....failure to understand how you cannot prove a negative....etc.

Muslim's?
I agree with stront, or his mate, that says they have very bad Public Relation's.
I was once trawling through the on-line social site's and visited a muslim one, and one girl had a quote on her front page.
"I like the Cars,--the cars that go boom"
That was it word for word, quite chilling I thought.
Violence may or may not be a large factor in Islam, but it's the way most people in the west see it. And no muslim spokesmen seem to condemn it.
(the catholic church has officially believed in evolution for a long time now)
(what's more simplistic than belief is thinking all religeons are the same).
---------------------------------------
Take into consideration the other religeon's recognised in the west, like budism and hindi, with their emphasis on peace and harmony, and islam does appear to be the odd one out.

:lol:

This is what I don't understand.
Since when was the absence of a particular belief a belief in itself?

I think the word "atheism" was first coined by a crafty theist, myself... -_-

Should we start applying labels to all the things we don't hold a belief in?

"evolution and Big Bang are just theories, like creationism"

"there are no transitional fossils" (well, yes, there is)

Atheism is a religious viewpoint. Agnosticism isn't. Hope that clears it up.

:wacko: :D

----------------------------------------------------

I had a discussion on here months ago about this.
I don't accept that the fact I don't believe in a "god" should automatically lead to me being labelled an "atheist"...and then, as seems to always follow these days, that this absence of belief in a "god" is a religion in itself... :blink:

If you were a Muslim in India, you might not think that Hindu is always so big on peace and harmony.

and the opressed Tamil's in Sri Lanka ain't too fond of their Buddhist neighbours.. and what do they do.. blow shit up, Hindus too.
Well fancy that!

The Burmese; Buddhists. Not a lot of peace & love there at the moment.
Which only goes to show


(Weill/Brecht)

You gentlemen who think you have a mission
To purge us of the seven deadly sins
Should first sort out the basic food position
Then start your preaching, that's where it begins

You lot who preach restraint and watch your waist as well
Should learn, for once, the way the world is run
However much you twist or whatever lies that you tell
Food is the first thing, morals follow on

So first make sure that those who are now starving
Get proper helpings when we all start carving
What keeps mankind alive?

What keeps mankind alive?
The fact that millions are daily tortured
Stifled, punished, silenced and oppressed
Mankind can keep alive thanks to its brilliance
In keeping its humanity repressed
And for once you must try not to shriek the facts
Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts

Yep. Sorry if that did not come across in my post.

I don't question anyone having faith in something that cannot strictly be proven... That would be double standards :D

Agreed! There's a world of difference about someone who doesn't believe in God and couldn't care either way - i.e. an agnostic - and someone who doesn't believe in God, but does care - i.e. an atheist.

I don't. Seven days to God could be a long time to us :whistle:
Plenty of time for trial and error ;)

I think what puts a lot of people of religion (beside, you know, the killing) is that a lot of people can't laugh at their own faith. Life of Brian is hilarious. Some of Bill Hicks best stuff was about Christianity.

Also, blind faith is not something I really 'do'. I will not shrug off evolution. It's just that there is something...

Ok, here goes. One day, while bunking of school in a park I ran across a women. Something strange drew us both together. When she aproched me I said "It's God, right" and she nodded. Turns out her hubby was a vicar and she herself also had this strange urge to talk. Anyways, it gets complicated there but I can't deny the pull that religion seems to have on me.

What I can say is that my faith tamed the violent side of my nature quite a bit, which has to be good.

GLPL

Nups. An "agnostic" is a don't know. A fence-sitter.
An atheist is anyone who doesn't believe in God or Gods ("a"= non, "theist"=believer in god(s)),some of whom don't believe and don't care, others are a bit militant like me and the Dawk, and think religion is more trouble than it's worth.

I kind of agree that there shouldn't be a word for it any more than there shouldn't be a word for people who don't believe in Sanity Claus. Not a religion tho, ohhhh no!

Did anyone see the Dawkmeister last night? He's getting a bit better at doing telly, but next week is when he has a pop at religion.