So, I am about to confront a sibling in a few days that I havent spoken to since we had an 'incident' almost a year ago. I have decided that, if we are to be friends again, that he must say that he is sorry. In addition, I want him to swear in front of me that he will not do or say certain things to me again - most of what he said was utter shite, and I want him to acknowledge that. I believe that in order for someone to acknowledge poor behaviour they must first verbalise it. If he values my friendship then he should be able to comply...

I dont think I am being unreasonable. He wont have to hold his hand on his heart or anything like that, just say what he did - which was this-and-this-and the-other-thing and say he's sorry. If I dont make this request of him, I am certain it will leave the door open for similar treatment from him in the future.

This is, in effect, the same principle that lies behind the swearing of an oath. I used to scoff at swearing on the bible in court, but now I can see the point. Once you have verbalised something, it becomes much harder to do its opposite, or to go back on ur word, in other words. The swearing of an oath has persisted down thru time because it still has value.

Or not?

yes.

and whack him with your tip if he won't.


Asparagus that is.

Your word defines you as an Honerable person. If you give somebody your word and stand by it then theres nothing more that anybody can ask of you is there?

Bloody oath, mate.

At least it would make him realise how seriously you take the situation. At the very least he should apologize like a man and promise not to do it again. After which, I would suggest you give him a firm handshake to show you accept (gosh, this chivalry stuff is quite hard to remember).

Although it does rather remind me of that bit in The Day Today: "look down at the floor and say 'Sorry' like you mean it!"

Institutions are not individuals. If i swear an oath to an institution, and proceed to tell the truth or uphold their values, I will lose sleep.

Nevertheless, its unimportant who or what the oath is for. The important thing is that u have said it to yourself.

I can appreciate the sentiment tho, with regard to the impersonal.

Consider, Fred, the importance of looking someone in the eye and telling them the truth, telling them what you really feel. You can tell when someone's bullshitting you, it's inbuilt in all of us.
Swearing an oath to an institution is one thing. Making a solemn promise to a friend/family member is another. You have to mean it. If he doesn't, you'll know.
And surely if it's a sibling, whatever the rupture was, if it can be healed you will both benefit in the long run.

That's a real tricky one, Fred.

You don't actually say how close you are to him, or how wounding or wrong the things he said at the time were.

I certainly don't think you are being unreasonable anyway.

Had Three Sisters and a Brother myself, me being the youngest, so i have been in similar scenarios from both sides of the fence. On occasion, we haven't spoken for years.

As it's only been a year since it happened, and you are making the effort to reconcile even though he was wrong in the first place, i would give him a break, as long as he didn't pull the same shit again at some later point.

He should just give his word that it won't happen again and he was wrong originally.

I always consider myself to be honourable when i give my word and expect the same from others, but that can be a bit utopian in the modern world.

Let us all know how it goes.

As you u may well imagine with two siblings in their forties, there is a complicated history and many unresolved issues. We have been kinda close over the years, and that, for me, is the hardest thing (I am very disappointed that he did not get in touch with me within a few days of his return from europe.) I am tired of being taken for granted and disrespected - things I have overlooked or forgiven for too long. I need him to put a value on the relationship, and I'll start by asking him to define some boundaries and take some responsibility.

Yes, I have been advised this by guys at work. Supposedly as the younger sibling I am supposed to be the first one to forgive-and-forget. Unfortunately, the time has come where I must draw a line in the sand - I have been the first one to compromise all too often in the past.

I guess what it comes down to is who wants it more - him or me? I fear the answer to that question may be the latter. :(

Well, we spent some hours under the same roof a few days ago but so far, neither of us have budged.

Its a mexican standoff... <_<

Not.

I don't know if making an oath is important in this day and age.

According to Wikipedia "The vow is a kind of oath, with the deity being both the witness and recipient of the promise."

But every time I watch the TV news, or read the online newspapers (here in Australia, at least) there's always someone who "vows" to do something. Here's a bunch of recent headlines from The Daily Telegraph:

Oil militants vow ceasefire 23 Jun 2008

Family vow to take licence from crash driver 24 Jun 2008

West Indies vow not to be bullied 13 Jun 2008

Real Madrid vow to break bank for Cristiano Ronaldo 24 Jun 2008

Proud Rozelle locals vow to fight Balmain Tigers development 5 Jun 2008

And from the Sydney Morning Herald:

Nelson vows to lead Libs to election 2008-06-29

Legend's son vows to step out of shadow 2008-06-29

Defiant Mugabe vows to hold Zimbabwe run-off 2008-06-25

Brown vows to step down after election 2008-06-23

Govt vows to cut cost of running a car 2008-06-23

Now I don't imagine for one minute that any of these people have actually made a solemn vow to do any of those things, so really the media is devaluing the meaning of the word "vow", because what they really mean to say is "say" or "state" or even "promise". None of them have actually made a vow.

Since most people get most of their impresions of the world from the media I think they're being done a great disservice here since, people hear the word "vow" but no longer realise what it entails, since it's used in such a loose fashion. Similarly I reckon the associated word "oath" is equally devalued.

THis sounds like one of those situations from childhood where you get told you should have said "excuse me, but I would prefer if you did not bully me in the recreational area. Please promise you will desist".

In short, people don't talk like that, and don't respond well to it either. If you said to me what you intend to say to your sibling, I would burst out laughing.
Talk to him normally if you want him to behave normally.
Oaths don't even get respect in court, dont you read the papers?

PS Never take sides with siblings. It makes less sense than taking sides with couples. THey know how to push each buttons better than anyone. And they know how to get onside with em too. I doubt getting the other one to swear an oath is part of that, it's just point gaining, regardless of what's happened.

As I said before, its not an oath I am asking him to swear. I am asking him to acknowledge explicitly the wrongs he has done me. It is the same principle that lies behind the swearing of an oath.

Talking to him "normally" does not apply, coz I wont be doing any of the talking. I have nothing to say to him unless he is able to take responsibility for his poor behaviour (which is why we spent a whole afternoon together without speaking to each other.)

I stated earlier that we are both in our forties, and to imply that this business is childish is frankly rather insulting. It seems ur cursory reading encouraged u to leap to unjustified conclusions. :devil2:

Who said "childish"?
Your attitude about the whole thing sounds a bit schoolmasterly more than anything.
If I were your sibling I wouldn't come round either. Passive aggression, like not speaking, is a stalemate.
If you want an apology, you'll have to do better than that.
Take the high road, or get off it, and stop EXPECTING so much.
I dare say he's still suffering in silence for something you said/did to him over a decade ago. He's not gonna tell you though. Siblings tend not to. It just comes out in other ways.

Sorry, I didnt realise that "situation from childhood" wasnt meant to suggest immaturity.

- that is because I know better than he does what is good for him and what he needs. :finger:

- I actually think I expect very little. A few words is all it will take. How bleedin hard can that be? :angry:

No, there were no accusations of childness here. The bonds you make as kids remain on a similar power-base level in all probability, but that doesnt mean you're not dealing with very mature emotions.

Are you older than him? (Fair question?)

It takes a LOT to apologise. We build up walls in the (mis)apprehension it gives us strength. Well, I do.
If I were afraid of you I wouldnt be saying this.
But maybe he is, just a little.

Just a thought.

WHOOPS, Sorry!

Demands of a younger brother?

Are you guys friends as a rule?

Oh daggers old mate, I would honestly luv to provide u with the background necessary for a better understanding, but its far too complicated and convoluted - as u would expect with siblings - to do it justice here on the forum.

I will say this; we have had a good, healthy relationship for over forty years. But he simply went too far recently and I feel as though I would be leaving the door open for similar behaviour from him if I cannot draw a line in the sand now.

And that 'line in the sand' is merely an apology and an acknowledgement of his wrongs. If he truly valued our friendship then he should be able to comply.

You've just the shit job of making the first step if you want a result eh.
Issuing demands aint gonna work though.

Watch the movie "The Straight Story", if it's advice that you want.

BTW, you said it was nearly a year ago.

That may not be "recently" to him, just you. KNow what I'm saying?

I have a long fuse myself (but it never stops smouldering), I don't have any siblings, and I don't know what the deal is between you two.
But - my advice would be to let things be and if he pulls it again, tell him why it bothers you whatever it is, tell him that you've had it, tell him to fuck off and kick him out of your house.
If he's a decent guy and he loves you like a brother should, he may run off angrily, but he'll eventually understand what he did, why it was wrong and he'll get back to you and apologize.
Just my two cents. :mellow:

No, sorry, but that's worse than "cheering Fred on".

It has to be resolved; they're friends, they go back a long way. Waiting for it to happen again and then exploding is inappropriate, IMHO. It just means a longer period of resentment followed (possibly) by a mysterious freakout on the part of the aggrieved.

People rarely respond well to someone bottling shit up and then goiing mad at them. It seems/looks worse than the crime.

tx for trying to see it from another perspective, daggers but it wont change anything. I know what needs to be done.

- this is precisely what started it all in the first place. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying Fred has to explode. Just tell him calmly that you've had it once and for all for this and that reason and that you don't ever want to hear that shit again. I admit that my social skills aren't brilliant, but I believe that if they're really friends, the sibling will be "shocked into recognition" and understand.

Ah, scratch my comments then, except maybe you were too emotional about it. Anyway, I would've done exactly the same.

Cheers. I appreciate you saw I was presenting an alternative viewpoint. I don't like advice and even though I'm bald (sans moustache) I dont like giving it.

"The Straight Story" is a great film though. Don't worry about the G Rating or the Disney funding (I think - hell "Pulp Fiction" had Disney funding!). It's a Dave Lynch film about sibling rivalries, but in a VERY low key, unpreachy way, trust me!

You're my best mate on the forum and I hope it all works out, soon! :)

I hear what you're saying. Sorry if I seemed to cut you down.

Reconciliation can come with just a mutual nod. :)

Not at all, and I hear what you're saying with the exploding bit, I used to be an expert at that - it does more harm than good. :)

...or a two week ban. :lol:

:lol:

It was four weeks (then reduced) and who said anything about reconciliation :devil:

Is there a thread here I can find out HOW to get banned?

I thought Fred would have been in charge by now, but obv that doesnt work........

Stick with me. :lol:

No need for a thread mate, just start a scrap with CT. Guaranteed to see you out of commission for a couple of weeks.
:devil:

FUCK YOU!! YOU"RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!! I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!

Will that do (obv this may be connected with my "cool" banned question ;)

Oh, more "harm" than good. I thought you said "Mum than good".

I HATE YOU MUM!!!!!! FFFUUUCCKK YOU!!!! YOU"RE NOT MY STEPMOM!!!!!!

Yeah, that should do it

CT stands for Canadian Turd!!!!! YUYYYEEEAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH.

Arent I suppose to LIKE CT to get banned though???????

Oh dear. So I should cancel the bookings I made for u and cleanville to tour Auschwitz together???