Today marks the 10th anniversary of the infamous onstage brawl which led to the departure of Steve Hanley, Karl Burns and Tommy Crooks. The end of a Fall era.

Regardless of the music's quality (far better during the last 5 years than in 1997/98 IMO) to me this seems like the termination of The Fall as a "real" band (with an undisputed leader) and the beginning of Mark E. Smith and his ever changing backing group.

Any thoughts?

The Fall has always been MES and ever changing lineups right from day one!

However, since Scanlon left,this turnover has spiralled dramatically, not always for the best / sometimes for the better.

I would like to see this current group stick around for longer than one LP (as seems to have been the norm in recent years), as their potential (judging by IWS) is amazing.

Agree wholeheartedly. They're still good and sometime great, but it's never been the same 'proper' Fall to me since that US 98 tour. Hard to put my finger on what it is/was though.

Its quite interesting. I still think of them as a band, with a lead singer. Never think of them as a solo vehicle for MES. When Scanlon went this meant less to me than when Brix went for the first time, that period was when i first got into them - seeing Brix go was terrable!

I'm sure some other people feel the same way about Una Baines :D

They've never been the same since Dave the drummer left May '77! :D

It was the loss of Shanley that saddened me the most (other than Mark's seemingly unstoppable personal downward spiral).

I was always quite confident that MES would cobble another passable gruppe together.

But 10 years ago! Seems like yesterday.

I often wonder whether Yvonne's dog got better.

I had a ticket to see the next night's show. It would have been the first time seeing them since about 1990, but it was not meant to be.

I'm really glad I didn't see the fiasco. Someone offered me a recording of it, but I decided to pass.

hey, anyway and that`s the great thing about this gig

fantastic versions of LEVITATE(much better than the studio vers.) & LIE DREAM! :thumbsup:

I remember reading about this at the time and thinking it was all over for The Fall…

But, actually, it was probably for the best.

I somehow feel that if the if the Fall still consisted of Smith, Hanley, Burns and whoever else then they would by now be a pretty tired and uninteresting proposition…the last ten years may have had their ups and downs artistically but I suspect they have been a good deal more interesting than they would have been had the ‘old’ Fall kept labouring on.

MES is certainly in a better mental and physical state now than he was ten years ago and, arguably, in a better artistic state too…I certainly wish the revolving door would perhaps revolve a little more slowly sometimes, but overall I think the range of musicians he has worked with over the past decade has, for the most part, added to, rather than detracted from, the quality of the groups output…

I completely agree with people who say that the Fall as a band somehow ended back then. MES didn't truly start his "me and your granny on bongos" campaign until after that. I think it's really... I dunno... disrespectful?... for people to play down the contributions of Craig and Steve to the Fall as an entity by saying things like, "It always was just MES and random band members." 15-16-17 years in a band is a huge contribution. At the very least, you knew that these musicians had 15 years of hard work and touring behind them, which has to qualify for something. The idea that a rudimentary guitarist who can barely play something like "My Ex-Classmates' Kids" can make up for more than a decade of riff-and-repeat rhythms and songwriting experience is just... off.

The bottom line is that I think the Fall have continued to move in various directions since the band fell apart, and yes, they've stayed fairly fresh (hard not to with all the turnover), but they've never ever surpassed what they were ultimately capable of back then. They've done more within a limited framework but their potential is nowhere near what it was.

MES is a legend now. He's proven himself. It's easy to say you did it on your own *once you've already achieved that status* but he didn't get there by himself, whether or not he truly could have.

Good post, Rex. :applaud:

Yeah, agreed. Thanks for articulating that sentiment, Rex. It had kind of been kicking around, half-formed, in my head, but you've formulated it very well.

Without wishing to call Rex's well argued post a curate's egg, I'd agree with the above, but I certainly wouldn't agree with this:

Levitate
The Marshall Suite
The Unutterable
Are You Are Missing Winner
Country On The Click
Fall Heads Roll
Reformation Post TLC
Imperial Wax Solvent.

Some of those records are more consistent than others, and some are better than others, but they are in no way narrower in scope, diversity or ambition than the previous seven or eight Fall albums.

It's indeed a great shame when great musicians leave the band, particularly long standing ones, but I remain convinced of the Fall's continued ability to make amazing records, sans Bramah, sans Riley, sans Scanlon and Hanley and indeed sans Julia Nagle and Jim Watts.

BROWNIES VIDEO

I had once felt that way, (that the ceased to be a real band after Brownies,) but maintain they once again became a real band with under the Pritchard/Trafford line-up.

Once I get Imperial Wax Solvent, I'll decide if they fully recovered as a band from that escapade.

The truth is if you were AT the Brownies show, you would've thought THAT wasn't the real band, regardless of Burns and Hanley being there. Mark was the one acting crazy, like he didn't accept that they were the The Fall and indeed, as if he didn't even want them to be The Fall.

By the way, for anyone who's interested, Brownies doesn't exist anymore. It's gone the way of Coney Island High, The Cat Club, The Lone Star Cafe, The Ritz, The Peppermint Lounge, CBGB, The Academy, and many another NYC nightspot that The Fall have played at.

Irving Plaza is still around though. But it changed it's name to The Filmore East. So's that weird Hiro Ballroom still there. But I've never heard of another group playing there that I was interested in seeing.

White Columns is still there, although it's always been a gallery space more than a gig venue. But it's true, all the places I used to see them are gone. :(

White Columns is one I never heard of. Where was/is that?

Hiro Ballroom's still there. They never have nuthin' I'd ever go to see though.

They played at Danceteria once. That's gone too. I don't know if they ever did Hurrah's, or The Mudd Club. My guess is probably. They best show I saw them at here was that Lone Star Cafe gig on the Saving Grace tour. They freakin' kicked ass. Everyone in the place knew it too. There was almost a riot because they didn't come back out for a 4th encore. It was that rabid.

At the Brownies gig...no one yelled for even one encore. :lol: Everyone was too stunned. Talk about yer "shock and awe."

Don't even remind me about the Lone Star show. I went with all my friends but one of us didn't have her ID so I gallantly kept her company. Turned out later she didn't even care about the Fall, she just wanted to be with all our friends. :angry:

I think I saw them at Danceteria, like '83 or '84?

White Columns is a gallery space on Horatio Street just west of Hudson Street by where Hudson Street turns into 8th Ave. They had a series called Speed Trials in 1983 that The Fall played at that was memorialized on a compilation named after the series. I think it has Tempo House or maybe Smile on it.

This record (which I remember as a SWANS type affair) was a big deal to me and my frenz at Penn State circa 86 or 87. We knew the Fall, but this really added to the mythos somehow. Of course the Fall totale-ly lorded everything else on the vinyl.

ON EDIT:

side note to Snarf: did u see me and my S.O. on the Today Show?

Really? I honestly didn't think you were THAT old...? :P

Speed Trials album here Herr Snarf, if you're interested.

http://isupplythecountrywithbutter.blogspo...?q=speed+trials

The Today Show?

Was that the one with Tom Snyder?

Hey wait, was that a trick question?! D'oh!

Ooh, you're really going to get it!

Hey thanks, Cryptomoralist! I never gogt around to picking up the Speed Trials album.

Jesus Christ! Then I pass it goddam everyday on my way to and from work and don't even know where it is!!! So THAT'S where Speed Trials was recorded?? I always presumed it was somewhere on the Lower East Side, what with all those East Village types of no-wave art-noise slow-grind bands on it...plus the pre-rap hardcore Beastieboys. :lol:

I'm going to look for White Columns on my way home today, and I'll pay homage to the Fall ghosts that linger there. :thumbsup:

What a :cry2: about that Lone Star gig. I hope you could still hear everything fairly ok gallantly standing outside with jailbait chick. :girl2:

Eleven versions of "Tempo House" has become Twelve, thanks to this excellent link, hooray--peray,
its the better Tempo, without the Harmonica, and emphasis on de BASS.
--thumbs-up smiley--

S. Hanley:

"The worst thing was the Americans were lapping it up - the entire front row had video cameras*. I'm sure seeing a band fighting onstage is entertaining but it's not nice to be a part of."

Too true maybe, would the world be a better place if there was no video evidence of this grim event? Yet it does exist and I still find it as gripping as a car-crash, cf. Ballard.

*(and not just little mobile phones)

In the only video of this I've seen, it's kind of hard to tell what's going on. Is there footage on YouTube?

I'm sure it's on there somewhere, but it's very fuzzy and tricky to follow.

There's definately a clip on the documentary (W&F World of MES)

Yes the only footage I've seen is from that doc - the link to it on YouTube is on the previous page.

I think I read somewhere on these pages that there's a more 'comprehensive' piece of footage around.

Not sure I wanna see it myself... :unsure: :(

Why not? It was 10 years ago.

THE BRIDGE
WATER

Ive just been reading up on the 'dingwalls' gig ( end of april 1998) when the group was just MES, Julia, and a girl drummer. Sounds like some of the gigs were quite good.
Id love to hear a recording from this minimalist time.

That was probably me that you are remembering. It's not what I would call "comprehensive" footage but it a little more extensive than what was on the BBC doc. Basically there was this guy who did a punk tock tv show in NYC who was at that gig, and what you are seeing on the documentary is brief clips from that old program. The show was called TV KILL and it is off-the-air now. It was a half hour program which included some of the in-between song "banter," and three complete songs: Free Range. Lie Dream, and Behind The Counter, as well as a couple of songs from the opening act The Chrome Cranks.

I do not know whatever happened to that guy who did the show once it went off the air, and there does not seem to be any footage from any episodes of that show on the youtube, nor any references to the show at all on the web that I know of. It is almost as if that tv show never existed.

But I do know that the guy was taping that Fall gig, so I presume he must still have the footage from the entire gig, since he obviously licensed those bits of it to the BBC for their documentary, but I admit I've never thought to check the credits of the documentary to see if it says: "Brownies footage used by permission of..." anywhere in there.

In any case I'd be very surpised if the entire fiasco of a gig ever ended up on one of those official THE FALL: ALL ACCESS, DVDs! :lol:

Fair point, but it still seems a bit like watching a train wreck to me.

Okay, here are my thoughts (there's a lot of them, please be patient):

To me its harder to believe in the dedication of the groups these days. With Hanley & Scanlon you knew they had some personal investment in the group. Some of the bands now, e.g the RPTLC line-up, you're left with impression of young kids in it for the craic, tossing MES a bunch of off-the-top-of-their-heads riffs whilst keeping their really quality ideas (assuming they're capable of any) for their own projects.

Although there are some line-ups that clearly do care (e.g. Heads Roll, RNFLP - you can tell, whether you like those records or not, that the effort was made), when you compare the best of more recent stuff with certain tracks off Levitate/LUS theres something lacking. Most obvious is Hanley's bass - once he went, the bass was relegated in the Fall Sound to about the same position it occupies in most other bands.

This means that whereas previously the Fall had the twin totems of the MES voice and the Hanley bass rumble making them stand out, there is now no such 'totem' in the music - so MES may retain his knack for shaping bland materials into compelling Fall songs, but the band lacks musicians of real character. Even when more recent players been capable writers, they don't perform their stuff with any particular flair or personality (e.g. the faceless power chords of Heads Roll).

One thing I would say for the crap RPTLC is that it is the only record that shows an exception to this rule - I'm thinking of Tim's very loose, noisy, whammy-barred playing syle. But that word 'loose' is an important one, for looseness is the other main element now lacking since 'that' breakup. The revolving door means there is very often nobody in the group who has known MES, or each other, for very long. With no time for musical relationships to gel properly (and no constant members greasing the transition from one lineup to the next) a fluid, loose band dynamic never gets a chance to occur. So even on the best of the newer records, the band often sounds very rigid, a bit too note-perfect, like they're playing to a click track, or recording their parts seperately (compare that to the dynamic, sparking performance on DIY Meat, with its muffed bass notes and clumsy ending).

I continue to find the Fall a compelling phenomenon however - I could never write all this if I didn't continue to enjoy the music, or find the constantly unfolding history of the group very interesting. And just so you know, I ain't heard IWS yet. Don't tell me - you'll spoil the surprise.

Thanks for reading!

Brillant post, junk-man. Very well put, and hard to argue with. :thumbsup:

Why thankyou!

Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything there.

Well put.