Greetings!

I'm a fellow fan of the Fall, like yourselves, and I'm afriad I
might be in need of a bit of assistance from the purveyors of your
excellent website.

I'm a history and political science student at Simon Fraser University,
in British Columbia, Canada, where this summer I've convinced a professor
to help me with a directed readings course on Mark E. Smith and his
musical cohorts.

With this project, I'm trying to research and write on the evolving
political ideology, if any, that can be found in the group's lyrics. I'm
also trying to place this progression in the context of broader economic,
political, and social change in Great Britain, a state that I'm admittedly
not from. I have my own initial thoughts, but I was hoping to maybe gain a
bit of insight from other Fall fanatics before I proceed further. I'd
appreciate any comment, even if that means being told that I'm on a fool's
errand at best.

Thank you kindly, and all the best! Feel free to contact me at any of the included email addresses.

Racan Souiedan
racan@scratchrecords.com
rsouieda@sfu.ca

just say (after an exhaustive search),there isn't any (quote 'Repetition' 1978-'Systematic Abuse'2008),.....job done ?

Can't do up my zip.
I'm a latch key kid.

Hello Racan

In my opinion, MES is firmly of the opinion that people should earn their rewards through hard work, and has had this view continually since the start of the band.

"Pay Your Rates"

This general ethos is probably more recognised now in the UK than say in 1980, where there was more of a feeling of state run businesses and government type jobs.

Maybe his view has been slightly tempered slightly when he broke his hip and had to appear live in a wheelchair, whilst seeing posters of David Blunkett encouraging people back to work.

"I was only on one leg, Blind Man have mercy on me"

Maybe not though. I mean he still managed to work with his broken hip. Jury out?

I reckon you've got an open book in terms of interpreting the lyrics in relation to social change. You could practically come to any conclusion you wanted, the lyrics are very enigmatic and open to interpretation. There is plenty in there to chew over, and a great lyrics section on this site that I suggest you make good use of.

"I'm a latch key kid"

I'd say his general outlook is for people to make the best of their own talents and achieve their rewards through hard work.

Spongers are anathema

Good luck.

I look forweard to you publishing the final article on this site. Make sure you quote the forum for anything you glean from it, now.




:D

Drink this and all will become clear Student Grant.

Only Czechoslovakia deserves to be free!

Good luck. Don't know how much help you'll get here, but I'm sure everyone would be very interested in the piece once it's done!

bonjour

first rule of dissertation writing: do a literature search


Here on this very forum in this fall related discussion section you'll notice a seminar on these very things

there's a link to the abstracts on the news page I think

"look it up"

why concentrate on the lyrics?

music is much more than this (obviously

what about all the other elements, too

starting with the economics

long road ahead i would say (if you want to do it properly

I'll turn your knee's to noodles.

In my chicken shack.

And piss on your 'green' hotel towel.

Go'in around do'in the town.

When my parents are in, they're really nothing to talk about.

Mr and Mrs I Smith.





I think master should spank you after school.

Cold shower for Hanley please.

Lyrically I could not even dream of a better song writer, for me the lyrical Fall really has made the difference.

The Meister is somewhere in Manchester

Not bothered exactly where, just so he's OK, like

:)

For me, for the last 28 years, the story of The Fall is found mostly in the lyrics, and accompanied by an interesting, get under your skin in a major way, and captivating variety of repetitive sounds.

Yay!

Evil is not in the extremes, its in the smug middle classes, who get it so wrong, they,re ludicrous.
Industrial estate, filled with all those hard working people, the air will make you sick, unless your rich enough to live in the country.
MES QUOTE "There are no jobs for us---thank christ"
but I think mes sometimes feels he should have gone into advertising management:rolleyes:
----------------------
To be serious Mr pSeud, the best thing is not to be a middle-mass smug twat.

I think you might find that politics is, like many other things in Fallworld, a mass of contradictions.

I bet the poor kid is sorry he asked now.

We're not all like this, lad, don't worry.

Thanks for the replies, I do appreciate them, even those that seem as intentionally cryptic and ethereal as the group's lyrics. :D I'm not looking for a definitive answer from anybody, I merely wanted to get a sense of what a few other fans might happen to think. I have my own theory that I see fit to argue (but which I won't divulge here).

I'm definitely of the opinion that the writing can be interpreted in a litany of ways, so that a few different appoaches could probably be argued with success.

At any rate, I'll definitely reference anything I quote from the site. If anybody has further ideas, please keep adding to this thread, or feel free to contact me at length by email.

Regards,

Racan
racan@scratchrecords.com
rsouieda@sfu.ca

Aw go on, just give us a snippet :D

Litany? are you thinking of Sunn0))/Atila Csihar?

perhaps you meant 'myriad'?

anyway-the messing up the paintwork conference-its all been done for you

Make what you will of these insightful lyrics into the MES mindset :

--------------------------------------------------------

Debtors' escape estate
A socialist state invention
The old government bones working
A no-motivation estate

------------------------------------------------------

Communists are just part time workers
And there's no thanks
From the loading bay ranks

------------------------------------------------------------

Get off the Ind. Est.
And we'd build a canteen but we haven't got much space
And the crap in the air will fuck up your face
Boss can bloody take most of your wage

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I eat hot dogs
I live on pies
I'm 45
Cause I am Jack
And I think think think
Just think think think
Too fast to write
Too fast to work
Just burn burn burn
And put down left-wing tirades
and the musical trades
And/or free trade
I say eat this grenade
To defend free trade
I said eat this grenade

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm fit and working, dear
Took me ten years to write this song
I'm fit and working again
I used to think this bog was the domain

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm living a fake
People say, "You are entitled to and great."
But I haven't wrote for 90 days
I'll get a good deal and I'll go away
Away from the empty brains that ask
How I wrote "Elastic Man"

His last work was "Space Mystery" in the Daily Mail,
An article in Leather Thighs
The only thing real is waking and rubbing your eyes
So I'm resigned to bed
I keep bottles and comics stuffed by its head
Fuck it, let the beard grow
I'm too tired,
I'll do it tomorrow

-------------------------------------------------------------

In 1978
Was in a hotel in Notting Hill Gate
Now in 1992
Staying in a hotel in Notting Hill Gate

Abject

I'm too busy to think
Too busy to work
Just can't cut it

Married, 2 kids

-------------------------------------------------------------

Work hard.
Do you try hard?
Dear crew
Try hard.

Chicago, now!

That's it: you don't.
That's it: you don't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are Glam Rick
You've cut my income by one third
You are working on a video project
You post out sixty-page computer printouts
On the end of forests
All the above will come back to you
And confirm you as a damn pest
Glam Rick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was a poster at the top of the street
Encapsulated in plastic
It had a blind man

So I said: “Blind man, have mercy on me.”
I said: “Blind man, have mercy on me.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you very much, Snoweyuk, that's very helpful.

I think his lyrics in Blindness - inspired by the ludicrous polticially correct situation where a blind poltiician (and former Home Secretary) David Blunkett supposedly controlled affairs - reveal a bewildered look at the realities of political life. Also, about the absurd acceptance by the public. He has long denounced the Labour Party and hinted at a creep towards fascism. I also think his recent use of 'imperial' in the last elpee and in Boxoctsis reveals an awareness of a Reformation around the globe (i.e. it wasn't just an exoteric look at the band break-up) where things (finance and culture) are being 'systematically abused' into being 'the same.'

There's loads of esoteric meanings to his lyrics and he intentionally leaves multiple interpretations. But I think he's very savvy politically and his indirectness is lost on many. He would appear to be aware of secretive groups working in the shadows. When he sang 'Numb at the Lodge' (Feeling Numb) on the Peel session I remember thinking - he's involved in masonry. That thought quickly disappeared though - but his interest in shadowy agendas have resulted in plays on Luciani and William of Oranj. His interest in politics is of the esoteric, not the exoteric garbage fed to the public.

I remember an interview when he spoke warmly of Miles Copeland whose father was reportedly a CIA officer. I can understand his interest re: the above.

I'm unsure whether the move towards Anglo-American life all over the globe is approved by the great man though.

Thanks, Grimo, that's really insightful. Is his play on Pope John Paul I still available anywhere?

google is your friend

check the bootlegs in buy sell exchange section

There's a transcript here:
http://www.visi.com/fall/news/luciani.html
Make of it what you will.

MES was, I'm reliably told by ex-Comrades, a member of the Young Communist League. I think since then he has taken a wide range of, often conflicting, opinions.

MES has in the past voted Conservative (until they put tax on takeaway food!), and has expressed a desire to Nuke Russia because it's "worse than Middlesbrough" :lol: This during the dark days of Thatcherism.

I think it's fair to say he doesn't hold a lot of affection for the "peace movement", and he had a positive loathing of CND. He's unlikely to be a Chomsky fan. On the other hand he shows a lot of traits that would equate with "old Labour" eg - an autodidactic approach, a beliver in the strength of working class comunities, and working hard.

I think he has more than a passing interest in conspiracy theories - Oswald Defence Lawyer, Hey Luciani, Operation Mind Control etc...

He's evidently not "party political" and seems to treat most politics with deep suspicion.

I reckon. me.

There have been similar threads on here from time to time. And Ducky succinctly sums it up here. A good example was back in the 80s where after expressing the views that Bagrec pointed out above, he/they did a benefit for the Militant Labour councillors surcharged in Liverpool, and, according to Brix, agreed to do a benefit for striking miners as long as it was in the North.

Alan Wise who probably knows him quite well pointed out the disparity of his views on the BBC documentary - he will say something conservative and then radical etc.

The thread is a wind-up, but nice try.
Right?
Wrong?
Ohh, all right then. What do the politics of the principal lyricist mean to me?
They are, somewhat obviously if you ask me, about the SHIT you have to fucking ENDURE as a HUMAN BEING in this conflicting, conflicted, fucked-up, fucking-up world we live in.
Delivered with rare sentiment, and singular, non-ingratiating talent, and accompanying exhilarating inadmissable NO-BULLSHIT music that make life seem somehow worthwhile, regardless of who you are, and what your own political stance may be.
The Fall attract thinkers, people who take rock music seriously, people who are well aware of the open-endedness and unavoidable cruelty of day to day existence. Who don't wallow in it, but know when they are actually being RESPECTED by the artist they are listening to.

ONLY The Fall offer this.
ONLY The Fall.

If you need a quote, MES said he is to "the left of Communism" and has voted Conservative cos they are more respectful to the working class. It floats. But:

JUST PLAY THE FUCKING RECORDS. IT's ALL THERE.
JUst don't expect a lyric sheet. Or inter pret pret pret tation, cheese.

His worldview is individualistic, without the greed, full of anger and disrepute, and defends the overlooked and undefended. People who go about their lives unnoticed, taken for granted, and misunderstood.

People like us, that have no category. Political or otherwise.

Just striving to get by.

Got it yet?

Maximum respect, DF96.
:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Agree with Dagger.

Don't try and get inside his head. I was in a room when someone tried this, and believe me, you just don't go there.

The Fall have nothing to with politics. The Fall are music.

Write a thesis mate, get a degree, get a job in fucking McDonalds.

You missed the best one of all, which is one of the older numbers called "New Face In Hell" from the 1980 lp Grotesque (After the Gramme).

I think that MES is also pro-recreational drugs (eg, "Ketamine Sun", "Pat Trip Dispenser") and from this I would infer that he wants to see drugs de-criminalized.

However, I think the thing MES is most against is police brutality, both because of his experiences with the NYC police in 1998 and because in the song "Hit The North" (available in several different versions on twelve inch) he roundly condemns police by stating that they cannot catch criminals. In the song "US 80s-90s",* Smith has also revealed that he had a "run-in" with Boston immigration agents. Being truly against police brutality is the key to fully appreciating the Fall at a sophisticated level.

FOOTNOTE

* Tragically this song, in its official studio release versions, is mastered about 1% too slow, causing most of the better critics to eschew it in favor of the correctly tuned live version on Cambridge 88.

Do you want fries with that?

I think Smith has got it wrong. Surely if the police were more brutal, there would be a lot less crime about and people could sleep a lot safer in their beds.

No, Smith is right. Or was. I don't think his lyrics have any meaning any more. I think he just throws words out there now. Has been since Extricate really. I think maybe he is too afraid of the police to express how he feels about them, afraid of reprisals, so he has just kind of retreated into nonsense lyrics for the past 20 years. I hope at some point he feels confident enough to do an anti-police-brutality themed LP or maybe even a double.

Like in Iraq with Saddam's 'Surprise Surprise' gang ??

*sigh*

Thanks for all the help, everybody.

I wasn't looking for a definitive answer, I merely wanted to get a sense for the diversity of opinion before I went off in my own direction. Footnoting a message board wouldn't exactly be to my benefit.

I've worked in the independent music industry for over a decade, since I was barely a teenager, so I thought this would make for a good exercise in reconciling my education and my work. Suggestions that I should work at McDonalds are completely uncalled for, and don't exactly endear me to many of the people who frequent this site. I think far too many of you are overly concerned with giving your best M.E.S. impersonation, rather than fostering any sort of solidarity among fans. Slagging people off that you've never even met, through the anonymity of the internet, is a silly way to live your life, in my humble opinion. Just play the records and lose yourself in your own inadequacy. Maybe I don't appreciate your sense of humour, though. That having been said, I definitely appreciate the quotes many of you have suggested to me.

I just said listen to the music sunshine.

I'm not 'slagging you off'.

It's humour. Even MES laughs sometimes.

Chill out. Have a Holstein Pils.

Welcome to Fall discussion.

totally pathetic.
you have a serious chip on your shoulder lad.

As for the thesis, I intended to do mine on The Fall and M.E.S, however I feared a reaction like this. Along the lines of 'ohhh it was easier in my days'... it (higher education) was also paid for in 'your day'.

Good luck to you mate

Get you wallet out then.

Are you doing an 'ology' ?

Perhaps this forum is as much of an enigma as the great man himself, Racan.

Attracting all sorts, but all absolutely devoted to, what is know as, "The Fall"

And many have the "Take it or leave it" attitude, just like MES - "Fuck You - learn by your own deeds" type stuff.

Grow a thick skin quick and learn to live with it.

I guarantee that you will not find a better source for your thesis.

This forum is quite literally "The font of all Fall related knowledge"

Respect it, engage with it, collaborate with it, but don't burn bridges with it.