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Title: Newbie's 2k Army - please help


Ohtar - February 8, 2005 08:18 PM (GMT)
Hello guys, I am new to Warhammer and I would like some advice on my 2000pts army list.

2000 Pts - Dark Elves Army

10 Warriors @ 110 Pts
Repeating Crossbow; Light Armour

10 Warriors @ 110 Pts
Repeating Crossbow; Light Armour

5 Dark Riders @ 127 Pts
Spear; Repeating Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

5 Dark Steed

5 Dark Riders @ 127 Pts
Spear; Repeating Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

5 Dark Steed

5 Dark Riders @ 120 Pts
Spear; Repeating Crossbow; Light Armour

5 Dark Steed

11 Corsairs @ 130 Pts
2ndWeapon; Light Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak

1 Reaver

5 Shades @ 70 Pts
Repeating Crossbow

11 Witch Elves @ 205 Pts
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon; Standard

1 Hag
Witchbrew

11 Executioners @ 156 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Standard

1 Draich-master

5 Harpies @ 65 Pts
2ndWeapon

1 Cauldron of Blood @ 205 Pts

2 Guardians
Frenzy; 2ndWeapon

Frenzy; 2ndWeapon

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts

2 Crew
Light Armour

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 100 Pts

2 Crew
Light Armour

1 Sorceress @ 160 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Dark Arts
Lifetaker

1 High Sorceress @ 215 Pts
General; Magic Level 3; Lore of Shadow

Casting Pool: 7

Dispel Pool: 5

Models in Army: 93


Total Army Cost: 2000


So what do you think? I 've started 2 weeks back and I have little experience...

Thanks for your help

RasputinII - February 8, 2005 10:44 PM (GMT)
A darned good start. The annoying format is a bit of a pain, but I managed to read it. :D The three units of riders the ickle unit of witches and the COB is a seriously good start. There are, as always some things to mention.

1) Banners, small units of fragile troops should as a rule of thumb not have a banner, the cons really do outweigh the pros :(. So thats 24pts you've now freed up. :D

2) Exceutioners, as you will come to find out are beautifully turd. As a result they are immune to the rule of 12, which states all elite infantry units should be 12 strong and in 4x3 or 6x2. Exces are best in 5x2 or 5x3 (10 stong and 15 strong respectively) with a champion in the first case and a Muso in the second. They can cause some damage but are cheap and most definitely a bait unit. :D

3) Magic, whilst its pressence in a COB army is rather unfluffy, I ppersonally not only think its necessary but very kool. Either way you have a problem with your magic item set up. 5DD + 2 scrolls really is the minimum magic dfense unless you are dead fast. So first up yoou need to get two scrolls, easiest way is drop the lifetaker and with your 24pts you can afford two. I would be tempted to push for other stuff, but I don't think you can....

4) Chariots! CoC are the way to go with any Druchii army. Loose the RBTs, they aren't that great, and bang in two CoC. Nothing beats 'em. Great! I can't say any more!

One last thing, here is Kel's (a great player, great bloke and uber Druchii general) took the following very similar list to the UK GT final. Thought it might be a good reference point (both in terms of the list and in terms of layout ;)):

Highborn, blood armour, drach of dark power
Sorceress, extra level, dispel scroll and dark star cloak
Sorceress, dispel scroll and seal of ghrond

15 Warriors FC
5 Dark Riders with repeater crossbows
5 Dark Riders with repeater crossbows

2 Cold One Chariots with spears
6 Cold One Knights, musician and standard – warbanner
12 Witch Elves FC - Hag with Manbane
5 Haries

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
1 Cauldron of Blood

Kel mentioned how he would like to swap the COK for two more CoC, so you could do that, or you could swap in some exces, you might also want to regig the characters etc.

Ohtar - February 9, 2005 01:35 PM (GMT)
Thank you very much Rasputin, you helped me a lot! (Sorry for the awkward layout). So I am re-writing the first list as well as the new one.

2000 Pts - Dark Elves Army

10 Warriors Repeating Crossbows
10 Warriors Repeating Crossbows
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows
12 Corsairs, Champion

12 Witch Elves, Standard, Champion (Hag with Witchbrew)
12 Executioners, Standard, Champion
5 Shades
5 Harpies

1 Cauldron of Blood
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

1 Sorceress L2, Lifetaker
1 High Sorceress L3, General

Casting Pool: 7
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 93
Total Army Cost: 2000

And my new one:
2000 Pts - Dark Elves Army

10 Warriors Repeating Crossbows
10 Warriors Repeating Crossbows
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
12 Corsairs, Champion, Standard (perhaps remove the standard?)

12 Witch Elves, Champion (Hag with Manbane)
10 Executioners, Champion (10 as you said, couldn’t afford 15)
5 Harpies (Harpies or Shades? I followed Kel)

1 Cauldron of Blood
1 Reaper Bolt Throwers (I think one would be useful)

1 Sorceress L2, Dispel Scroll
1 High Sorceress L3, Dispel Scroll, General (you think I sould make the noble my general?)
1 Noble, Chariot, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak
(if I remove the standard from the Corsairs he could be like this:
1 Noble, Chariot, Great Weapon, Blood Armour)

Casting Pool: 7
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 85
Total Army Cost: 2000

What do you think? I don’t like the Cold One Knights….



RasputinII - February 9, 2005 03:40 PM (GMT)
Looks good. No worries about the format, but the change has made things much clearer :D The list has improved but I thought I would just say a ickle more any way :D

RXB warriors are great, but a good thing to do is run them in 12 strong units with shields. True this pushed their cost up, but it makes the unit far more capable of multiple roles/tasks. Firstly it gives you a improved save vs missile fire - very useful indeed. Secondly it gives a you a 4+ save in CC, making the unit more reilient then empire sowrdsmen in combat! The reason for the 12 strongness is so you can deploy them in 8-4 (8 models in the front rank and 4 in the second) giving you 16 shots per turn, but also granting you +1 CR for a rank! When the enmy gets close you can use the add a rank speccial rule (taking up 2.5" of your 5" move) to add a rank putting you in 4x3 formation (3 ranks of four models), but still allowing you to shoot that turn (which reforming doesn't). This way you have +2 CR in CC, and turns your shooting unit itno a very good combat support unit, ideal for supporting either of the infantry units. A very common shooting config that really works well in a unit of the afore mentioned RXB warriors + 2 RBT, whihc gives you a very good fire base. 16 S3 shots + the DR shots + 2 RBT! Very nice. I would be tempted to work in that combo instead of your current one simpley because it is very flexible and very effective.

The general this really comes down to who you reckon you can keep alive longer. A noble in chariot is great, but is vulnerable Vs Lizards and Empire/dwarf armies because of the S7 hit thing. Keeping the HS alive is more about skill then anything else. If you find yourself to be very good at keeping her alive then make her the general, however to start with I would make the noble your general. :D

CoC are as I have mentioned a few times to many, a very good choice. What is better then a CoC? Two! That may sound logically but hariots are good on their own, but fantastic when you ahve two. Partly because of redundency (which is all about having multiple units who can do the same job so if one dies you can still do that job - like having more then one fast cav unit or heavy hitter), and partly because of the stupidity thing. LD 9 is much better, but it can still fail you, by having two chariots you can either put them together to guard against stupidity or as most people do have them either side of your main one or two units, spreading the pain, but also helping to minimise the stupidity problem. I would be tempted to drop either the noble :( or a unit of riders to put in a second chariot.

Somethign I have been toying with, as a way to minimise the number of points you have to spend on sorceresses is to have just one HS with the Darkstar cloak, 2 scrolls and the seal of ghrond. This gives you exacltly the same number of magic and dispel dice, but saves you a huge 40pts! Admitidly it makes her more expensive, and her death more disasterous, but if you keep your noble you could give him the seal (so as to minimise the amound of magic defense you loose if either one dies)! Those 40pts will allow you to swap your current RXB/RBT set up in to the one I mentioned. If you do this the noble really must be your general! Then if you want you could drop a DR unit and add in another CoC, or as I have just seen you could boost your Corsairs into 5x3 and give them the warbanner - making a very formidable unit especially with the CoB re-rolls.

As for the shades or harpies thing that is a personal choice in the end. Harpies are by far the better mage hunters (units designed to kill enemy spell casters) and warmachine hunters (units designed to kill enemy warmachine crews), but against armies that cuase fear (undead) their LD6 means they rarely do anything useful. Shades on the other had are more reliable and would give you more shooting 5 gives you an additional 10 shots, which would make from the fire power you would loose if you did drop one DR unit. They are also more useful for cunning manuvers. I would ssay for a new player take the harpies, unless you drop the DR, and then its 50/50 again :(. Remeber that a unit of 5 shades costs 5pts more then a unit of 5 harpies....

I know this must seem negative, but I assure you it isn't. Your list is great, but it all comes down to fine tuning (I have been fine tuning my Cult list for 2 months now!), and getting the most out of the points. I am surprised at your list to be honest. As a new player I didn't accept a list of such calibre, just the usual COK uber unit - so kudos for comming up with a great list! One last thing, if there is anythign I have said that doesn't make sense or that I haven't explained well enough then please pick me up on it. What is great about the Druchii is the welath of cunning tactics that have been developed and ideas that have been thought up. So if anything I mention, like bainting for example, doesn't make any sense for what ever reason just say and I will endevour to explain better. Also if their is any abreviation I have used that you don't understand then again just ask, like the formation notation thing. I explained each one just incase you weren't sure. Still not sure if I did that well enough...

EDIT: Just got the link to a thread I wrote on this site about tactics. As a Druchii player myself what I say is all aplicable to Dark Elf armies. YOu may find it useful, especially the baiting bit, which is how the Druchii win games! Link!


Hope I am helping,

Ras

Ohtar - February 9, 2005 10:56 PM (GMT)
Hello again my General Ras! Your points have been accurate and most helpful! I changed the list again so we have:

2000 Pts - Dark Elves Army

12 Warriors Repeating Crossbows, Shields
12 Warriors Repeating Crossbows, Shields (too clever the 8-4 formation, and since I lose troops, the warriors will have to fight in close combat too)
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
5 Dark Riders Repeating Crossbows, Musician
15 Corsairs, Champion, Standard

12 Witch Elves, Champion (Hag with Manbane)
10 Executioners, Champion
5 Shades (since I dropped the dark riders)

1 Cauldron of Blood
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

1 High Sorceress L3, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll, Darkstar Cloak
1 Noble (General), Chariot, Great Weapon, Blood Armour, Seal of Ghrond
1 Chariot (2 in total)

Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 87
Total Army Cost: 1996 (I hate losing these 4!)

If you anything else to add/ say, please do.. I really appreciated your time and effort, I didn’t expect so much. Thank you!

Concerning the fact of me being Newbie, it’s true (and your doubt is really flattering) but you see, I have a kind of experience but not with warhammer. I’ve started miniature wargames with Warzone (for a semester – didn’t like the Shi-Fi environment) and then I was occupied with Chainmail, a fantasy wargame of the Wizards of the Coast, based more on a DnD style of gameplay (heroes not troops). I did like it a lot but unfortunately Wizards stopped the production and distribution of the game at the time it came in Greece (yap, if you find any difficulties in understanding my words, then it’s me, not you). Consequently, no players, no variety in miniatures.

What helps also is my experience with strategy games in PC and especially Rome – Total War witch has many similarities with Warhammer (concerning the realism of war they provide).

But the most important factor (I think) is the fact that I was playing Magic the Gathering (a card game if you’re not familiar with it) for years. There, the most essential part in winning was building your deck choosing cards that would work in most cases and that could work together for better results.

I think that Army Building is based in the same factors…But my friend, I think you are exaggerating since half the army (at least – if not, more) is yours!

Thanks again

Ohtar

RasputinII - February 10, 2005 11:00 AM (GMT)
I am aware of Warmachine, never played it, but it looks like a giggle and models rock. Very tempted to start I am, especially having seen a game...

The list looks scarilly good. You managed to get alot in their :D. The only sad thing is foricing the HS to be a lvl 3, 7 PD is much better then 6. However I can't seem to find the 40pts with out cutting down the corsair unit which you need. One thing, the blood armour. Blood armour only really works with a missile weapon, because your save isn't very good as you start and your only way of improving it by killing things. I would swap it for HA + SDC + a shield. This will give you far more flexibility and reduce his cost :D Overall I really like the list :D. Something you could concider would be dropping the DSC for another scroll, although this would render your magic phase sub optimal it would boost your magic defense and allow you to focu your long range killing on shooting. I am not sure if its a great idea. but the lack of magic does worry me a little. I have found 7 PD + the Wand to be a very good way of going about magic in non WAACy settings, but that is an additional 80pts! If you could find 40pts to make the lvl 3 into a lvl 4 I would say this list is near perfect.

All thats left now it to get gaming.




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