I think 40k has the best fluff. I mean, it might be because GW developed it more or what not, but as it stands, its the best.

I've always been a fan of the grotesque/arabesque my entire life. Art, literature, etc. I've also been a fan of mieval things as well as sci fi. 40k is like taking sci fi, gothic art both arabesque and grotesque, and fudal society and making one beautiful thing out of it. I don't really know why, but fantasy's fluff just dosn't seem to hold up. Might be because I can't find much, but it just dosn't.

What do you all think?

P.S. 3 kittens died as a result of this post.

Au contraire: Fantasy is twice as old, and has twice as much detail. Fantasy background material is best found in the 5th edition army books, although there's a lot in the more recent army books as well.

I think Fantasy outstrips 40K by a mile on the fluff stuff, simply because Fantasy doesn't overdo it. I think I can best do this by summing up the 40K atmosphere:

Darkness. Darkness Darkness death. Despair. More Darkness. There is Only War. Darkness. Dark Dark Dark Dark Dark. Everyone's going to die. Darkness. We're all doomed. Darkness. Darkness Darkness. Death. Doom. Doom doom doom we're all doomed. Darkness. Darkness. Despair, Despair Despair Despair, the End is Nigh. Oh the Darkness...

You get my drift. Fantasy is a universe where you have both black and white, and many varying shades of grey, whereas 40K is a universe where someone has gone over the atmosphere with a can of black spraypaint.

*jumps with glee*
For once chilli you are WRONG.
The 40k universe isnt just were all gonna die crap. There is hope for the universe (Imperium). There is also the good the bad and the neutral.Good= Imperuim tau eldar
Bad=Chaos Nids dark eldar Neutral=Necrons orks.
And the fluff is ten times in more dpeth than fantasty (even thou i must admit i do like the fantasy fluf especially for the tomb kings and Beast of chaos.) The fluff in 40k details all the races from there very origins . Also thinking of fnatasy its the same tune over and over agin Oh know a big bad guy from the chaos wastes is coming oh now were gonna die hide. At Least its not always the big bad Chaos guy in 40k its either him the big bad ork guy or the nids.
Ok i think my points is given.
My rant is over. :fight:

Tyranids arn't bad, just hungry....




On topic, I agree with Chili. FB has better fluff by far. 40k's can be stupid sometimes, like how they still use machine guns. What an idiotic idea, give the standard Space Marine a hydro-thermal vaporiser or another made up space weapon and I'll reconsider my judgement.

But at the moment it looks like my army will continue to chow down on pathetic machine-gun-using marines.

well, they are super-powerful machine guns with explosive ammo, besides I think it would be horribly cliched if everybody had lasers.

IMHO I think 40k does outdo WHFB in one aspect; I think it is actually less black and white than fantasy. The whole chaos thing in 40k isn't so apocaleptic as such. Chaos in FB is just so uncompromisingly evil, but in 40k it is more greyish. In fact, when you look at the Horus Heresy, there was no right or "good" side, just like the real world. It goes into issues of today, like the destruction of Istivaan V and the prejudice against mutants and psykers.

In other words, I think the 40k fluff is more realistic than FB, but you can't really blame FB, it is fantasy after all ;)

Accually Chilli isn't wrong as its his opinion...I think 40k's fluff is better because theres room for so much more diversity. In FB your really just stuck on one planet. 40k gives you a uinverse. That, and I've read mroe 40k fluff as fantasy fluff is harder to find...

The Imperium is a prejudiced, repressive, facist regime.
The Necrons want to destroy all life. They're evil.
The Eldar don't care at all about anyone else, and are completely out for their own survival at the expense of all others. They're neutral.
The Tau are a practically communist, imperialist power, with dark undertones beneath their glossy society. They're not good.
Hence, there are no "goodies" in 40K. I'm not saying you need goodies, I'm just saying that the sheer amount of darkness and doom becomes a little unbelievable and OTT.

As does FB fluff. I know you're pretty new to the game, so you won't understand that FB is by far the older game, and therefore has more fluff, developed in more detail (as we're working over a smaller area), because the fluff has simply been building up for longer.

At least in Fantasy it's not always the Imperium fighting this invasion or that? Besides, there are only three really publicised great Chaos Incursions in Fantasy, compared to 14 in 40K, so there's that argument going down in flames. Also, I presume the names Nagash, Gorbad, Morgrim, Azhag, Helsnicht, Vlad, Mannfred & Settra mean nothing to you?

Right now im slighlty ticked seening as you called me a noob.
One thing of ive been playing this game for 11 years now.
2 yes i realised i made a mistake with the necrons when i first posted and techniacally they are evil. Yes it may always be the imperium defending but if you think about its because they have so many planets. Also isnt jsujt like the empire
in FB.
And the name Nagash gorbad Azhag vlad manfred and settra do mean something to me but what i basiccaly said its always nearly always choas casing the trouble.
Yes i know that 40ks fluff is a bit too much gothicy but also at that respect that probbaly what makes the game so dam good.


Rant over.

Now, as all of you know, I like to rant about GW's fantasy team, but underlyingly they aren't bad, 40k are the real sinners.

1: Space mrines. There a thousand chapters each with a thousand men. Now, considering that they are deployed all across the galaxy and a fight a lot of the time suffering casulaties, surley, there must not be enough. Though this is not what really ticks me off. ULTRAMARINES, they are a 1000 strong yet they fight in 100's of places at the same time and deploy in large numbers. With only a thousand numbers, I do not think so.

2: How Horus lost. Considering this guy is the arch evil villan surle, he would not leave the shields down, not even to witness the ultimate victory. I just find the entire story of Horus Hersey filled with flaws. At least the torm of chaos was ruined by us players having a laugh then incompetant games developers.

3: The 40k fluff realistic, warp storms suddenly disappearing at the ideal moment, nobody getting rid of the emperor despite it being a pretty basic job with all the high tec gadgets, msen beset by all sides, yet at the right moment, so nobody comes up and saves the day then dies. It is soo boring, though the ogres fluff has chaos dwarfs in despite them being discontinued was so cool and so much better than I thought. When tau came out, I thought, great so anoother uber shooty army.

4:

Chili, I can't type how much I agree with that.

5:

I know not everyone actualy really likes/reads fluff, but I admit that surprises me.

6: The fact that 40k is so dominated by ultramarines. Sure chaos are dominating in 40k but in some books e.g vampires there is no mention of them were without fail there is a mention of ultra's or dpace marines. It is sooooooooo boring.

7: Dreg, you know that most of them are not even chaos. Though I have found your arch nemesis I am sure now, the commar.

Finally, chili has done the races and as they are what I would say, I see no reason type it out any more.

You will excuse me for taking you for a new player; I tend to judge on typing style and it works most of the time.

I would just like to make a mathematical point here:

Fantasy ratio of non-chaos:chaos major wars:

Gorbad, Azhag, Nagash (x3), Helsnicht, Kemmler, Settra (continuous), Vlad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein, War of the Beard: Archaon, Asavar, original Chaos Incursion.

11:3

40K ratio of non-chaos:chaos major wars

Behemoth, Kraken, Leviathan, Ghazkull (x2), What'shisname (the Bad Moon guy): Abbadon (x13), Horus, Angron.

6:15, or 2:5.

So we see that there is far more of a "repetetive Chaos cycle" issue in 40K than in FB.

Next:

Nope.

Settra's War = vs. Bretonnia
Morglum's War = vs. Bretonnia.
Nagash's 1st 2 Wars = vs. Nehekara
Malekith's War = vs. Ulthuan
Nurglitch's War = vs. Lustria
War of the Beard = between Dwarves and Elves
Kemmler's War = vs. Bretonnia

That's just a few. I could go on, but I'm doing homework - ta ta for now.

I tend to disagree that 40K fluff is as bad a sportrayed here. yes Fantasy is in more detail, but lets face it Fantasy is designed to be more detailed in terms of fluff then 40K.

40K you can make up planets and entire system wide wars etc.You can put your race where you want because of the ideas of space travel alllowing even small groups as space marines to move across the galaxy.

Campaign wise most often it is Imperial vs someone rather then chaos vs someone - remind me again a non - imperial vs someone event? But this to me is fair as we can at leats side with one of the groups and the background can be set as it comes from the human side. Unlike fantasy GW cannot base the view on the opposing side as easy, sure Orks are obviously Orks but we never had examples of Orks in other writings such as Tolkein etc on which fantasy is heavily based.

Main ideas such as the Imperium and Chaos have been set up and their backgrounds explained, to my belief they are more all in a grey area no good or fundamentally evil race there (possible exception of necrons but they see themselves as good or at least right to destroy life) and it is to my mind much more interresting to see why rcaes clash on ideas etc.

Fantasy is a lot more set in terms of the world, we know the types of landscape and the major powers and most of the minor ones and where they live. For example if my high elves fight dark elves they normally tend to be placed in one of two places (Ulthuan or Naggaroth).

Main campagins aand historical wars are more varied then 40K i'll freely admit, but the size and scale of fantasy and the fact that most epople undertand these races and what they're supposed to be from other fantasy sources, eg. Tolkein would explain this.

The fight of 'evil' (Undead ChaosChaos Dwarves etc.) vs the Free people (Elves Dwarves and men and now possibly Ogres) and their internal squabbling is again interesting and more clear set but i do not think that it is better the n 40K simply because i know what groups i subdivivde them into, in fact i prefer not being able to IMHO.

Of course no-one mentions LoTR which i reckon has the best 'fluff' a major bestselling book and a award winning movie triolgy, cant get more definitive and engrosed into a storyline then that.

phew im spent

well the Lord of the Rings fluff isn't exactly original is it? ;) I don't really like the additional fluff that games developers put into LOTR, it just sounds so shoddy compared to the actual backround by Tolkein.

Jeeze...Ok Chilli, no more bashing the everything...as you said, FB is the older game. Now, you seem to hold it against 40k for being younger and having 'less' fluff, and 'less' detail. Sorta shot yourself in the foot there.

I'd like and admin to close this thread, as it will ONLY provoke pointless squabbleing.

I have only briefly skimmed the respective arguments of either side, and already, I have one, simple request.

Please, for the love of Buddah, Jesus, Mohammed, The spaceship that follows Halley's comet, Science, or whatever you happen to hold in highest esteem in this world, stop freaking whining about chaos! I swear that every fifth post in any argument about Warhammer or 40k, on this site or any other, can always be summed up as "The *insert aspect of hobby here* that you support is flawed because *insert idiotic remark about chaos being overpowered, overused or both here" and I, quite frankly, am sick to death of it.

I've tried, people. I've tried my best to understand how you could have such a moronic opinion. I've read over all the chaos books several times over, scanned the fluff for any signs that chaos is being "overused" any more than the standard "source of evil" in any game or rule set ever is. And I can't find it. Either you people are just so damned stupid that you somehow think that the fluff designers should forget about the villains (i/e the source of the conflict in a game based on constant warfare), or you are just whining because you also play an evil race and happen to think that they should be the ones in the spotlight.

First off, there is no "endless cycle of chaos." Chaos is the primary antagonist, yes. What of it? I don't see anyone whining about the LOTR minis "Endless Mordor Cycle," do you? There are two chaos books out, both for different armies with entirely different tactics. Try not being such knobs for a change, look past the fact that they both have "chaos" in their titles, and realize that the presence of two chaos books does not consist of some huge fluff monopoly by chaos over all the other races (who might not get mentioned enough... until their book comes out, and they get entire issues of white dwarf devoted entirely to them). 40k players have even less of a reason to whine: There is only one 40k chaos book. But wait. Doesn't the Imperium have, what, 4 books out already? Why isn't anyone whining about an "endless Imperium cycle?" I think that I know the answer to that question: Even you guys realize how utterly stupid that would be. So why doesn't the same rudimentary logic kick in when chaos is involved?

As to people who think that chaos is overpowered; well, I've noticed a disturbing trend among these individuals. First off, they all play elven armies (which for some strange reason, seem to attract more whiner than all the other races combined), and all love to cry and mope for hours about how unfairly shafted their army was in 6th edition... until someone inevitably posts some stupid thread about personal win rations, at which point they all proudly jump up and beat their chests while declaring themselves to have a 98% win rate ("But I usually do better; I'm just having an "off" season since I've had to work so hard and haven't had time to practice"). Since these people are obviously capable of amazing feats of what Orwell would call "Doublethink," I will not try to argue logically with them. Instead, to all such people, I would like to cordially extend an invitation to shut up.

So, to close, and if you absorb nothing else about this post, at least get this: Your obtuse need to keep moronically bashing chaos has caused somebody who you don't know, and who in all likelihood lives on another continent from you to spend about twenty minutes typing up a semi-coherent, rage-filled diatribe telling you to shut up and die. Read again: Your stupidity is causing total strangers to despise you. Think about that for a moment. And if the reason why you should stop being so repetitively stupid hasn't occurred to you yet, then you officially should have been aborted.

Heh. Don't close this thread- I'm finding it interesting. So far I've seen a few intelligent posts- from Aesgareth, LordChilipepa, Prince Caledorian and gandalf. I don't agree with all of them, but it's interesting. I'll post a reply soon...promise.

Aesgareth's response was something I've been wanting to say for a loong, loong time. I think I love him.

EDIT: BELOW IS MY RESPONSE TO THIS DEBATE

I loves me the 40K universe. Not as much as fantasy, but fantasy was, and always will be, my first love. True, it can be summed up as Chili said:

And I'd like to mention that that's the funniest thing I've seen on this website. Because it's so true! The 40K universe IS a little dark. Perhaps excessively so- I don't think so. It's a matter of personal taste, really. I like my music a little depressing and I prefer black. So, y'know, it suits me. But I'm only black eyeliner and some fake suicide scars away from being a goth, so I might not count.

However, I will say that fantasy is a deeper setting. It's got more background- partially because it's older and has the time to develop, but because it's detailed. The writers over the various generations have really had time to get into the nitty-gritty of the game. True, some of it has since been superceded (Warhammer-RPG, anyone?) and some of it's no longer relevant (Gods of Law, anyone?), but if you want to call upon it, it's there.

40K has some of that, true. It's gone through four editions now (currently on fourth, anyway) and the background has been altered. Yes, it used to be detailed. But you can't go into the same amount of detail in a galaxy as you can on a lone, piddly planet. It's just not possible. This is the reason Dune was mostly set on Arrakis and the Dragonflyers of Sucky were set on whatever planet they were set on: because it's easier to detail one world, even if you've got millions more out there. It's just simpler.

However, that same expansive universe allows 40K players (at least, the ones older than 12, physically or mentally) to explore the universe to their heart's content. Want to base your Chaos Marines outside of the Eye, raiding from a planetary base on the Eastern Fringe? Go for it. Want your Imperial Guard to be the private army of a ruthless planetary overlord bent on seceding from the Imperium? Do it. Want your Imperial Guard to be the volunteers of a planet dedicated to truth, freedom and democracy and therefore wants to be free from the Imperium? Go nuts. Want to design an army based on the Borg? Go nuts, but don't let any lawyers see you.

Fantasy is more limited, at least if you want your army to be set in the warhammer world. There are no fishmen (unless you pretend they're a species of beastmen). There are no 'High Ones' or whatever. However, you can build an army of, say, High Elves that 'count as' 'High Ones' and simply state that your army isn't based in the same world. Friendly gamers won't mind, tournament players don't care and you can set campaigns in whatever world you're basing this from. Fun, yes?

Chrissakes, folks, GW states this themselves numerous times- make your own damn fun.

Um, no. Sorry, Treeman, but you fail to realise two things. One: Space Marines use bolters, which are essentially miniature rocket launchers. Two: Technology did get to the extremes you're referring to, but then society collapsed and all that knowledge was lost. Kinda like Terra's Dark Ages, but a lot worse. That's the justification for the relatively primitive technology.

And there's that. Good call.

That's where you're not looking deeply enough. Chaos in fantasy is mostly just primitive tribes worshipping their traditional deities. Cultists are those seeking change and advancement. Many come to worship Nurgle as only He is willing to stop the pain of the plague. Many worship Tzeentch as He promises to change the world for the better. Khorne is simple a warrior god- how is He worse than Ulric, or Odin? Slaanesh offers distractions from the pains of the real world- how is He different than your local bar?

Chaos is simply a different path to that of the regular humans. Some are violent and extreme, but I'd imagine that there are many who simply worship the chaos gods as another would worship Sigmar or Taal. Look at Witch Hunters and the other extremists of the Empire- can you really say that they are better than the fanatics of Khorne?

Well, for narrative reasons it's because he's an evil villain and that's what evil villains do. :) Fluffwise, it's not known why. Some suspect he wanted to confront the Emperor himself, others suspect he was tricked. Hell, the Emperor could've turned them off with his GODLIKE POWERS for all we know. That's the point- it IS weird.

They often also appear at the exact wrong moment. Also, warp storms are caused by heavy psychic impressions, so the Emperor/other gods could be manipulating the warp to a certain degree.

Also, narrative.

They WORSHIP him, remember? Besides, only his Custodians have access, and their roles are handed down from father-to-son. Also, see GOD.

Chaos Dwarves are not discontinued, hence them being included in the Ogre fluff. Duh.

Alongside what? Imperial Guard play VERY differently from the Tau do. Besides, has it occured to you that GW might do things for reasons besides what kinds of armies there are? A lot of armies are 'shooty' in 40K. That might have something to do with all the guns, it being a futuristic setting an' all. Guns are what you HAVE in such a setting.

I'd say GW released the Tau because a) People like interesting new concepts. See Necrons. B) It appeals to the anime-riddled children's market. c) It's a truer 'shooty' army than IG- less combat options, fewer soldiers, faster transports. It plays VERY, VERY differently.

yeah i agree with benedictus! you'll never gets us chaos dwarves down (as we are clearly the master race, i mean look at us, we got long beards, big hats, normal movement (take that dwarves!) cavalry, black orcs, and blunderbusses!)

but i must interject, i like both games.

i do think that the whole emporor deal is bogus, and that 40k is a little too dark, but i mean, i like it just the same. I do think that fantasy is more developed, but as benedictus said, time will develop 40k more. People just see 40k as the lesser game because it attracts a younger crowd then fantasy does.

I mean i went to a rougue trader tourney (and had my ass thouroughly pummeled (damn you chaos!) and for the most part, the fantasy players, were like mostly 19+ (i mean i'm 14 but still i was young for those people there) and the 40k players were kids my age, i mean i saw a few kids from my school, and like a ten year old kid, as well as the 19+ crowd. so thats why i think that people tend to look down on 40k IMHO.

just my two cents
_jumba

@Aesgareth

I have played an uber powerful tzeentch army before, I don't mind the rules. I just find the constant drip drip of sweet new chaos models irritating. There, I am not saying chaos are overpowered.

@Benedictus

Then God allow him to. That would be so so much cooler than, the sort of "We have given the evil guys enough applause now so lets go and play killjoy." Ever noticed in eye of terror the loyalist were getting a good kicking and then in the space of a week the loyalist suddenly turned it all around. Great job done there.

Though reasonable, I still think it should have been as cool as some of the great great stuff in the high elf book.

See life support machine.

It just seems to me that it is often in favour of the imperium. For example, in the 1st war of Armageddon, the warp storms convieniently dropped at the time when they were about to lose. This often happens, if occasionly chaos or some other fraction would get it great, but Gw's favourite the space marines always get it.

I am not saying the imperials, I am saying the other armies. Would be great to even see an attempt but no, always sitting nice and pretty.

No plans t redo them for ages, no models, to be fair they do seem like a bit of a dead race. Though I do have hope, they seem to up aginst it.

Picture this, when I walk into my local gw and go over to the painting table or a gaming table. I normally see two armies lined up next to each other waiting to shoot the hell out of each ohter. I know it is based around guns, but the only true combat armies are nids, orks, chaos, and the eldars. The rest can do their bit but not really. A change I think would be good.

As for the reasons they came out, I agree I am just a grumpy fantasy player who likes to moan about 40k. This being said I am looking at a dark eldar army or actually using my eldar who I think have started getting dust on.

Again, I fail to see what you are talking about. The only huge influxes of chaos models that I've seen took place A) when the chaos books were released, and B) during Storm of Chaos, when they wisely decided to replaced the hunchbacks of the north with models that looked a bit less like armour-wearing ghouls, as well as add some variety to daemon armies.

Sure, they get more newly released models; because there are more books. Again, try to think of beasts, mortals and daemons as three distinct armies, and not as a cohesive whole. Does anyone whine about the "constant drip drip of new elven models" whenever any of the elven races gets a few new characters or models introduced? Not of hope. They can't sideline one of the chaos armies just to make a few loudmouths happy, and they really did need more daemon units. I mean, what was a pure Slaanesh army before they thankfully came out with the new daemons? Daemonettes, Daemonettes, A keeper of secrets/Daemon prince/Exalted Daemon, more Daemonettes, with all the tactical roles being filled with mortals or beasts. It was pathetic!

That was thanks entirely to the efforts of the players involved. In the first few weeks of the war, we chaos players were a lot more organized. The forum leaders knew from the start that if we remained in place and fought wars of attrition with them, the superior number of Forces of Order would gradually grind us down and insure defeat. So we played hit-and-run Blitzkrieg for a while, weakening imperial influence and then moving on before they could show up to counterattack. In the last week or so, the Imperial players became much more organized, and started to watch the maps very carefully for the signs that a chaos blitz was taking place (i/e large quantity of battle reports set on one planet in a short space of time) so that they could immediately react accordingly. The result was that they managed to take back some ground, and prevent an overwhelming chaos win in all regions but Cadia (which they had kept very tightly defended throughout the entire campaign).

Even if the bolters ARE miniture rocket launchers....Even if the Imperium DID have a social collapse...I still think that over the course of 40 Millinia they would have better weapons.

But I also see your view about it, like how it would make the game boring. That is true.


But seriously, why are we arguing? It really doesn't matter in the long run, they're both good fluff. No matter how much we argue I doubt we will change anyones minds...

Not any of that infact aesgareth. Gav saying he has definate plans to do more updates despite the great model range.

Hey, I am a conspiracy theorist. Maybe it had a bit of fixing, maybe it didn't but that will never be known. The fact is that such a sudden change in results will always make me want to throw some crazy theories around.

Ok yes i know i was wrong when i said it was always chaos in fantasy making the problems if you go years back youll find that theres been a total of 9 chaos incursions. I also know about all the nagsh incursions(being one of my fave FB characters and wating for his army to come out which may be this year or start of next ).
The horus heresy was a bit sckethcy and the fact they keep on changing the bloody story doesnt help. Orignally Horus lowered his sheliddto invite the emperor one last chance to save his empire.
Also i must agree that theres always an influx of chos models in fb even thou other races may need new models thou, but me saying this there is also an equiverlant in 40k .
One thing i msut clear up is the 1000 man chapter thingy. The chapters may only have 1000 MARINES per chapter but they are supported by sort of half space marine corps and the imperial guard.
One last thing when the marines win something it does normally go bad for them as well (especially Ultramarines which i can combfotabbly say are hated by most people) a good examply is after the Battle of Macragge campaign years ago, they were resticted in the amount of terms they were aloud and the amount of heavy wepons and tanks. I dont know if still stands today but im not to bothred cus i wipe marines across the floor. Now this is the last thing goign to what cal said about the mainly combat armies Yes they may be mainly comabt armies but most of the races have some way to counter this. And the main combat armis are nids orks and Khorne chaos armies(to be honest eldar can be but not always depends how there used whilest these are used always as combat armies.)


I think this is the longest post i have ever done and i hope this sheds some light on some things.
*stairs amazed at all the writghting*

For starters, that may have something to do with the fact that the results were based on games- as Aesgareth mentioned below. Second: Stop ragging on the writers. I swear to <insert deity here>, man, it's wearing thin. If you think you can do better, go do it. Apply for a job as a BL writer, or a games writer, or whatever. Write something better. Criticism is one thing (I know I do it), but attacking people without giving good, clear arguments for/against is plain stupid.

On one of your other points, regarding no-one attacking the Emperor: It's quite simple. He's on the most heavily-defended planet in real-space. He's the god-father-patriarch of an entire EMPIRE of humans, with about a zillion cults dedicated to HIS SUPREME GLORY. People've made attempts (see Campaigns, Eye of Terror) but can't even get close to Terra. Because, y'know, of all the warships in the way.

While I loved Chaos Dwarves and even started to collect them once, they are not and never were a 'full' race. They never had their own army book (just a collection of White Dwarf articles) and they've never been hugely popular. GW does have plans to bring them up to speed- they've said so many times. It's just not a priority, due to the huge lack of popularity the little guys have. They could've just cut them from the picture altogether, but they didn't. But did that make people happy? Oh, no. It made them whine HARDER. Gods, people. I understand the figure of speech, "Give an inch and they'll take a mile."

Did you miss the part where most people have guns? Let me reiterate:

They have guns!

It's suicide to go to war with knives and axes when your opponent has missile launchers and tanks. Yes, most 40K games involve lots of guns. Y'know why? It's set in a futuristic setting! Star Trek has guns. Babylon 5 has guns. Star Wars has (faulty) guns! Futuristic settings involve guns. It's a fact of life. If you don't like guns, don't play 40K- that's understandable. But it's not GW's fault that armies have guns.

Even the 'melee' armies; Tyranids, um... and Tyranids. Wait a second. There are no melee armies. There are armies that use melee specialists- Chaos, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Necrons (albeit not many- Pariahs are about it)...hell, I can't think of a single army without some form of melee specialists to add that extra tang of strategy. Your comment of 'true' combat armies being Orks, Eldar, Chaos and 'Nids is unfair. Only 'Nids would truly be a melee specialist. Orks have a range of shooty options, and Adrian Wood has proved this many, many times in battle reports. Eldar and Chaos are customisable specialised armies- while it's true one could customise them to the state where they are melee specialists, it's a waste of their other abilities.

Now, Tyranids are an incredibly versatile army, and aren't without their ranged weaponry. I fear for tanks around the larger 'Nids, and the swarms have the numbers to make it to any front line- provided, of course, they're careful. In all honestly, Prince Cal, I find your comments a little odd. You say a change to 40K would be nice (without providing any commentary about what that change should be- should the game become MORE shooty? That's what a hardcore sci-fi gamer would say, I imagine) based on your opinion that the futuristic game features too many battles that rely on guns to win the day. Honestly, now- don't you feel a little silly?

[I agree with you. Know that, and be content.]

Remember, humanity did have better weapons. Then everything fell to bits (sometime before the Great Conquest, or whatever it's called- just prior to the Horus Heresy), and it was all lost. Then the Great Conquest (or whatever), when the Emperor went out ant B*tchslapped some alien/chaos scum. Then the Horus Heresy. Since then, 'only' ten thousand years have passed. During this time all technology has been controlled by a bunch of psychotic machine-worshipping zealots, who religiously crush anything resembling new ideas and hoard anything they manage to find from Ye Olden Days. That's why weaponry isn't better.

This is true. However, when was the last interesting discussion on the 40K forum? Seriously.

It would, if you'd care to shed some light on your spelling first. I can't even read that, man. And that's a shame, as you've obviously gone to some effort.

I must admit, however, that it is pretty amazing.

The collapse happened only in the last few millennia, so they still lost all of that sweet, sweet technology.
Even with all those years, technological advancements may be a little slow with all the fanaticism they're involved in over their Emperor. In their time of conquest, they were still in a Dark Age of advancement. Maybe they just focused so much on their warring that they lost interest in advancement (the weapons they had worked well enough anyway).

Also, Benedictus, I'll assume those points on spelling are largely humerous by intent. Any objections over that from anyone, PM me or Ben.

Not any of what? What are you talking about?

Exactly. You're weighing "crazy theories" against my arguments which are based largely off having gone into the forums of both sides, read the "strategy" posts, and compared these to the unfolding situation on the map. The fact is, the "Forces of Order" became much more organized near the end of the campaign, at which point their superior numbers became a definite advantage. Before, they were hindered by uninspired leadership and largely "reactive" planning. The "forces of disorder" knew they were at a disadvantage from the onset, and were forced to think outside the box in order to succeed, which is what they did. It was only in the last few weeks that the forces of Order realized what they had been doing wrong and managed to turn things around to a large degree.

Plastic knights, different chaos warriors for each god and a plastic chaos chariot.

Okay, you win about the eye of terror thing.

Benedictus, shaargor is currently wooping my arse at warhammer so I need to get back. Will reply to you tomorrow morning.

Yup. Although it really does seem like Dreg went to some effort, and so it is a shame I can't read his post.

Benedictus try looking at it now i edited it and i tihnk i got most of the misttakes except for skecthcy cus i honestly dont know how to spel it so i have a wild stab in the dark.
Back on topic the reason they imperium doesnt get any better eqiupment is because they have a law inforced whihc basically says if youre not a Aeptus mechanicus than you may not use equipment from before the collpase or any new technology till, the Adeptus allow it out. So bassically there not aloowed new guns until the Adeptus Mechanicus stop playing and get bored with the otehr equipment theve got. I hope that shed some light.

Well I have real failed suicide scar but lets not go there ;) But yes, PLEASE close this one, its my thread and I'd like you all to close it...If I wanted endless squabbleing, I'd tell my neighbor to stop making all new players Space Marine. CLOSE IT. I'm remaking one.

Will you allow us to continue discussion? We're finding this quite interesting... you should be proud.

@Dreg: S-k-e-t-c-h-y

Name them or admit defeat :). The ones I'm talking about are the Great Catastrophe, the First Great War Against Chaos and the Storm of Chaos. As far as I'm aware, there haven't been any others; that's why the First Great War had its immense historical emphasis and shock value. Kind of like the First World War - nothing on that scale had ever happened before.

There has been 9 recorded due to the ever chosen fluff if I am not mistaken but that is not really known by most people and gw has only done up the 3 chili has said.

As far as I can tell, there have been hundreds of "great wars against chaos." The First Great War is such an important event for several reasons:

1) The Empire was in shambles, and seemed completely ill-equipped to deal with this menace (being caught, as it was, in the middle of a massive civil war). For the first time, the barbarian hordes seemed to have a very real chance of winning.

2) The war was paralleled with another first: for the first time, the hordes of chaos managed to align their efforts with those of the Dark Elves, the result of which being the almost complete overrunning of Ulthuan by the combined Druchii-chaos horde.

3) Finally, and perhaps the biggest of the three, the High Elves, after beating off this invasion, sent help to the humans in the form of Teclis and two other Archmagi, who gathered toghether the unskilled human sorcerers and, for the first time, managed to organize these ragged elements into a useful weapon in the service of the Empire. This resulted in the creation of the Imperial Colleges of Sorcery.

Sorry, Aesgareth, I stick to my guns – I have my WH World timeline open in front of me.

-4920: First Chaos Incursion against civilized races
-1666: Chaos comes to Naggaroth. Dark Elves narrowly escape annihilation.
211: Malekith launches a pre-emptive attack into the Wastes before Chaos marches on Naggaroth again.
2006: Chaos fleet dedicated to Khorne assails Bretonnia
2250: Chaos steps up its attacks on the civilized world
2301: Great War
2303: End of Great War
2515: Chaos incursions begin to increase once again.
Present: SOC

Now, the 2515 entry makes it clear that the events in 2250 & 2006 are isolated raids, warbands and small armies damaging and harrying the Old World. Constant attrition, but not the all-out clash of confrontational warfare. The kind of total war we’re talking about only happened in -4920, 2301 and in the SOC. The Great War was called the First because it was the first that the Empire had ever had to fight. Until around 1712, with the final defeat of Gorbad Ironclaw, the "Big Enemy" had been the greenskins. Then, from 2010 onwards, they had the Vampire Wars on their minds. The First Great War heralded the emergence of Chaos as a destructive threat to the Empire's existence, rather than the insidious force of attrition and decay it had been beforehand.

No time line but there has been more than that Chilli, HoC book highlights this a bit;

Morkar vs Sigmar was the first, next was Khaardun the Gloried but Be'Lakor took over his body and became the Shadowlord of Mordhiem. Then Asavar Kul the Anointed, defeated by Magnus The Pious at Praag and finally Archaon.

It also says in the last 7ooo yrs the raids have become more recent. The point being that GW hasn't given entire details on every incursion, not all are on the size you meanioned but do still ravage the southern lands. We just aren't told of them.


Ku

If they're not big enough to be told of, then they're not important enough for us to consider. We're drawing a parallel between the vast, total wars - the Black Crusades in 40K, the Incursions in FB.

Morkar led the mortal armies in the 1st Great Incursion, c. -4920
Khaardun the Gloried never got to lead in an Incursion because of Be'lakor's Mordheim shenanigans.
Asavar Kul led the armies of the Great War, 2301
Then Archaon.

We still have my "Big 3". GW are definitely throwing more emphasis on this "Everchosen cycle" thing, but so far they haven't gone back and restructured history; the only thing they changed was the name of the leader in the Great War, who used to be called Skathloc Ironclaw. The whole idea with these things is that their frequency is meant to be exponential - so far the Old World hasn't suffered many, but they will occur more frequently and at an increasing rate of frequency as time goes on, unless steps are taken. Hence the way that for the majority of its history, the Empire's main enemies have not been Chaos, and Kislev has kept the Wastes at bay, but now Chaos is the main enemy of practically all human nations.

True, not all or on the epic scale of the great war or the SoC. But then neither has all the Black Crusades, we know there are thirteen but IIRC not all were the size of the Eye of Terror campaign portrayed. Many were small but damaging strikes, as many of these smaller incusions may have been. As you said chaos wasn't the biggest enemy to the Empire, we know this but they don't. Ever since the Great War they considered chaos as their biggest threat even though lots of the warbands and incursions are stopped by the Kislevites.

But here's a few other "big" chaos attacks

First Incusion, we know about
Battle Of Dispair, Naggaroth is just saved
Ravages of Gorthor, Hocland is devastated - Battle of Hergig
A plauge fleet invade Bretonnia, besieges Couronne and roughly half the knights of Bretonnia are slain.
Great war, Battle of Praag
SoC.

Whilst not all these were the huges epic wars you seem to be on about they were big, coming close enough to almsot wipe out two races (Druchii, Brets). We must remember that not all incursions were against the Empire, some have other aims but the Empire is the biggest and easiest to destory (apparently :rolleyes: ).

And I feel I must point out that the Empire calls the Great war as such due to it's the biggest they can remember, at this time they were keeping records and were cizilized enough to note stuff down. In Sigmar's time, at the first war I doubt they thought much about this (maybe a cave painting here ot there :P ) so within nothing recorded of course they're going to call it the "Great War".

I'm done, next. :P

KU

Are ye saying that Sigmar fought against another Great Incursion? Fie! Fie on you, I say, for they did have records, as is demonstrated by the existence of the Sigmarite Church, and lo, the dwarves did have records as well, and were moste close to Sigmar.

The First Incursion I already mentioned.

The incursion into Naggaroth I'm willing to add. That makes non-Chaos:Chaos attacks in Fantasy in a ratio of 11:4, while 40K is still at 2:5. My argument stands.

The Plague Fleet: that's been edited out of modern Bretonnian fluff, and as far as I'm aware the big killyness of that period was mainly brought about by the Skaven unleashing the Red Pox.

Great War: I did mention that one ;)

Ravages of Gorthor: Gorthor didn't take a single city. You call that an attack?

Fought in another invasion? Did I? :blink:

They may have had records, but the point being not really extensive. I'd expect it be something like "Sigmar kills big man with horns and big glowy sword" ;) But the church of Sigmar could easily be contributed to when he left, he was never really reveared as a god until he decided to return the hammer. It was then the Sigmarite belief appeared, so at that time I'd imagine they'd have forotten about him slaying Morkar (who incidently was also killed by Aenarion... GW consitacy at its best ;) ) and put more thought into recording of their current histories. The Imperial calender starts when Sigmar was crowned Emperor, so this gives the impression of their records starting at this time. Of course the dwarfs would have the records, but us dawi have always been unsure about sharing. :P

Umm... what was your arguement again? :wacko: I kinda forgotten.


KU

Dreg said that 40K had the advantage of having a multitude of equally nasty villains, while FB was stuck in a "Chaos cycle". I refuted that by compiling ratios of Chaos:non-chaos major wars in each game.

Oh yes, chaos isn't always the big evil in FB. Its just the most convienient, a bunch of evil deity worshippers do what they say and slaughter for fun. Not much planning required. But orcs have played a large part in the FB world, the sacking of many dwarven holds and the waagh Ironclaw upon the Empire.

But 40k, it's more Imperial vs Traitors. With a few other races thrown into their big campaigns, I know of about two maybe three non Imp vs Chaos.

Armeggedon
Mcragge


OkI give in, that's it. Of course the Imperium fight other races, but they fear chaos more. Hence why they have two faith type organisations; Grey Knights and Inquistion. Don't see that much in FB, well maybe Witchhunters. But do they ever get it right? ;)

KU

I can think of a few
Ichar IV
The webway battle in EoT
Iyaden vs Kraken on craftworld
Destruction on Crimson Fists fortress monastry by Orks
Damocles Crusade
Necron attempts on Mars


I disagree, all the 40K codex's have information on campaigns they faught particuarly versus the Imperium mainly to justify that everyone can fight it as anyone who is fighting imperium can largely be assumed to be able to fight anyone else. I would say Nids Orks are equally an opponent to the Imperium as traitors, prehaps the problem at the moment is the new Inquisitional codexes as we have yet to see the alienhunters one, which should provide a lot more info on non-human vs human wars.