Hello, good chaps.

I'm most likely going to the GT this year: with that in mind, I want to start testing out armies well in advance for the first heat so that I have a lean, green killing machine ready for when I hit the actual tournament. I'd like to hear your views on this army:

http://www.thegreatuncleanone.com/viewArmy...p?ArmyID=108625


The general notion is that the Skinks and Terradons impede the enemy army to such an extent that the vast majority of his troops will only be able to move at a decent rate if they charge. The Salamanders occupy a flank, scaring off light troops who try and avoid my skink cordon: my Kroxigor deploy back a bit to either side of the TG, with the non-scouting unit of skinks to help them out.

I advance cautiously, probably moving no more than 8" forwards from my deployment zone: I use the TG to soak up about half of the enemy's army and then swing the Kroxigor into the units that have flanked the TG, racking up a huge combat res and a massive fear-causing Unit Strength. While the enemy advances prior to this engagement, the Terradons and JSOD bound around, destroying all potent missile fire and hunting down mages respectively. This should hopefully give me strategic dominance at range, allowing me to magic and shoot the enemy line to bits as they advance and pressure them into charging the TG even when they're aware that these guys aren't going to move. This effect should be fruther enhanced by the fact that they'll be march impeded for a long while, meaning that they will be lucky to actually manage to charge anything else. My firepower is decent, putting out two Salamander shots and 35 poisoned javelin shots a turn - my skinks will actually be in range a lot of the time, due to their march-impediment role here.

What do you think? I'd particularly value any advice on this in the context of the GT, e.g. what I should expect to face and the general calibre of my enemies-to-be.

Well, not being a Lizzie player I can't say much concerning the list. However I have a few things to say concerning the GT.

As I'm sure you are aware, they have now instituted the whole 'Top 50 (1/3) go through to the final, free of charge' notion and this has of course had a profound effect on the armies present at the heats. The calibre of armies brought to the heats have indeed increased. People are now brining their 'hard' armies to these heats to ensure they get through, and then brining the 'fluff-bunnies' to the final (as many of them just want to have a good time, as they are sure they have no chance of winning the overall competition). The prospect of a so to speak 'free second tourney', is resulting in the harder armies coming out sooner. So do expect fairly powerful armies to be present. Although, the one-trick ponies, such as SAD, seem to have diluted a bit. When going you really have to ask yourself, are you going for the fun of playing 6 entertaining games, or are you going to try and win and get through to the finals? This should help you justify whether your army is what you really should be taking. Having an army that is overpowered to the point where it will not be fun for you or your opponent to play, may get you through to the finals but will not get you too many smiles from the opposite side of the table, and may leave a bitter taste in your mouth when you win.

Concerning the calibre of players, it varies. Anyone can of course enter the competition and hence you could face any kind of opponents. There will be the first-timers and then of course there will be the seasoned tournament player, ala the Dragon Slayers club (with Rob Lane, John Dale and all). Luckily, many fantasy players seem to be more cautious when it comes to the GT and they wait until they have an at least good grasp of the rules. The slightly higher ticket price should help this, as many will not bother paying the money if they know they will have difficulty in their games (e.g. not knowing rules, resulting in arguments and so on). So basically be prepared for anything, but you should be able to expect opponents that can at least give you a reasonable game. The whole lower and upper tables system goes far towards achieving the objective of you facing people of your own skill and hence you should be given at least 3 or 4 good, competitive games. Generally it is not a good idea to build a list on the assumption that your opponent won't have the skill to react to situations you present him with. GTers on a whole are fairly experienced and will most probably be knowedgeable of many of the more subtle tricks employed.

Anyway, the experience I hear is one that should definately not be missed and is something that you will remember for a long time. Just being able to play all different kinds of opponents, with different tactics, armies and takes on the game as a whole should be well worth the money.

Anyway, I hope that all helped in some way.

I have been having a think about what we said and all and the best thing I can suggest is lone slann. It will give you enough points to get the COR unit that we wanted as well as some more skinks and the third Sally. Although I guess I know what you're gonna say. My other idea was perhaps drop the Slann to fourth Gen, add in a skink priest and then you can take two units of sallies. Havign said that I can't see where to get the points for that unless you start dropping TG or a whole CC unit.

I guess you should, as I mentioned today, just give it a try. The key will be getting the TG to work for you and not against you. I would certainly be worried about people just ignoring them and dealing with other things. I recon Empire/Dwarfs lists might give you a more difficult time then you think, especially if it is magic heavy - as they are. If they have a bit of cunning then can sithe through your harassment troops and force you to advance on them - through the cannon fire. Another worry (as with my list) is big flying nasties. Things like dragons could be a real pain. Provided they have a good magic defense, which they probably will, could be very dangerous indeed, and difficult for you to keep a lid on. Basically I reckon give it a few games against a few different kinds of opps and then re-evaluate. Thats what I have deicded to do - although the Aspiring/Sorceress debate is giving me a headache....

Lone Slann: Not a fan (Hey, it rhymes!). If he was 4th Gen, then yes; not if he's 2nd Gen. 2nd Gen Lone Slann is a huge target; the enemy would throw everything at him, and even if they lost most of their army in the process they'd still win :(

Fourth Gen: Nah, at the moment my Slann theory is that 2nd Gen is the only one who gives you real value for points. I can't get a Fourth Gen and a JSOD and keep a competetive edge on the magic side of things, and the JSOD/Slann combo is my "ace in the hole", so to speak.

Empire & Dwarves: In the games I've played against Empire at the GW, firepower has not been an issue. They've got one turn of shooting my precious TG at long range, provided they get first turn. Otherwise the skinks and JSOD are on them, and the Terradons are winging their way in as backup. It's amazing what you can do with overruns - the JSOD can kill 2 enemy units per turn, e.g. hit cannon, kill cannon crew, overrun, hit handgunners, break & run down handgunners in enemy turn... and since he's a lone character I take every opportunity to line those charges up :ph43r:

Flying beasties: Aye, they may be problematic. The Lizardman army isn't very well adapted to dealing with them, though: we can't stop them outmanouvreing our ranked units, and the only thing we have that can kill them isn't really manouvreable enough to catch them (Carnosaur). Kroxigor are pretty decent at taking down Griffons/Manticores etc (I have no Ancients), so that could be one solution - alternatively, if it's elves on dragons, a few Uranon's Thunderbolts might dispose of the rider nicely :). Apart from that I will be forced to resort to pumping as many poisoned shots into them as I can per turn.

Come to think of it, the JSOD may also be a useful tool - if it's a US4 thingy, or one likely to fail a LD test, I could go for the rider. After all, if I get me Steed o' Shadows then ol' Bouncy is actually 18" FASTER than the dragon, and can do a curvy charge due to the two parts of his movement... yes, that is something to consider. If the rider dies (risky, since he's likely to be well protected), then I'd probably have enough CR to avoid being splorted by the big beast's "Outnumbered by a Fear-causing Enemy". Then I could hit it with some Kroxigor....

Firstly, sorry I dont have much more to say, but I just thought of an anti tactic you might have to be wary of at a gt.

A HE archmage, with the book of Hoeth, has about an 85% or so chance (cant remember figure. I'll find the big graph thing) of irresistable force when casting with 5 dice.

Now, imgaine this 355pt looney against your 900pts+ slann and unit. What this guy can do, is cast a full level drain magic on your slann. This effectively shuts down your magic, leaving it to the skinks. On top of that, the HE army probably has upwards of 11 or 12 power dice, so has plenty to dish out each turn before smacking on the wonder spell.


Now then, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all of tactics. It could not get IF, you could kill the archmage somehow, he could miscast etc. but it's just something to be wary of. If 350pts can shut down 900 of your points (as those TG are now just an expensive saurus block. HE outmanoever them), it will leave the rest of his army an unfair advantage against the rest of yours.

That was kinda random I'll admit, but I was just thinking about the drain magic spell, and which the single most powerful thing it could shut down was. And the means to deliver it. I didn't want to start a new thread for that, so I figure warning you is the best place to put it.

That's an interesting idea. One to be wary of... then again, there's not much of a margin of error for the HE player: he has to cast it in the initial turns or Chili will rule him wholesale, as the good old Ankh-Morpork anthem goes; either a flying JSOD, a Master of Stone, a Master of the Wood, a Father of the Thorn or a lightning bolt will settle his hash toute suite. Skinks should also be useful: unless this chappie joins a unit, he's going to be extremely easy for me to splatter.

Finally, I'd just like to ad that if the worst comes to the worst and the guy can cast the spell and stop me from killing him, the whole point of the Temple Guard is to be outmanouvred, to tempt the enemy into charging. Once the elves have engaged from all sides, I won't be breaking, they will be falling rather quickly (Temple Guard rock, they eat Swordmasters for breakfast and White Lions as a tasty sandwich-style snack before lunch), and it will be naught but a matter of a turn or two before the Kroxigor hammer in in return. Flanking the Temple Guard is not a way to beat this list... it's what they're there for ^_^

Another neat little trick HE have destroys that TG unit.

If you do say, expose your rear to a DP unit just to tempt them, you could find those TG dying very quickly.

See, HE have a standard called the standard of balance. What that does, is make the holding unit, and any unit in base contact with it immune to phsychology. It had been confirmed that this cancels out being stubborn, as you cant be both. Now you got a rear charge from the best elven cav there is, probably a flank charge from some helms too, and even a BSB with "oh gracious banner of +d6 to combat res". With no stubborness, and no ranks. You lose. It doesn't matter if your throwing 3 dice for break test, and rerollling it from the slanns BSB. If you're beaten by 10 combat res, you're gone.

Watch out for that one too.

Chili, here is something that Kel posted in my thread on D.net. Most useful, I am sure you will agree:

Okay, lets add a reply to this interesting topic:
1: Xarhain's point is a good one. Those combo's he said are lethal, I run a unit of 8 dp's with standard of balance, a bsb with the battle banner and a prince. This in an all cav army which is only out paced by cult of pleasure and slaaneshii daemonic leagion is a very very hard to beat.

The same with the book of hoeth. You can run an army with 2 level 2's an archmage, 4 rbt's and a killer unit of dp's easily at 2k and that is lethal. That being said think high elves probably can create the nastiest lists in warhammer.

Finally, the null stone. If your temple guard are flanked by a unit of 9 dp's with a prince with the null stone in, you are in trouble. Why you may ask and the answer is simple, you have no magic from the slaan. He loses the ability to cast anything and the effects of all his magic items. Now, I have used high elves but all armies have the ability to do this to you.

2: I think the temple guard on their own don't work. Yes, you say you want them to be out manovered but when the fact you wil be losing every combat with no hope of breaking anything, eventually you will die. It's a risk which I am, not sure will work.

Overall, it's a good list but you are a bit of a one hit wonder, so you will have to be very very careful.

First up, Plaques cannot be negated, even by elves. That means my Skink would still have the full 9 power dice to play with. Not the best compensation for the Slann losing his casting ability, but hey, better than nothing.

I'd also like to follow up on this:

Au contraire - they are in trouble. It's mathematically impossible for that unit to kill all 15 Temple Guard in one turn, and highly improbable that they could do much better than take me near half strength. So my Break Test is still Stubborn, Ld8, re-rolling. So I'm not going nowhere, and those DP are going to be flanked... by Kroxigor. That's probably the most painful fate any heavy cavalry unit can suffer, especially as there might be a JSOD leaping back into the fun with 5 S7 attacks as well. The whole point of the Temple Guard is to soak the heavy enemy units and allow me to hammer them from all sides with hard-hitters.


I played Harry's COP list yesterday with this list, playing two games. Both were massacres, one to him (he managed to kill all the Temple Guard with his Anointed, Devoted and Spawn and then ran down the Slann), one to me. We pinpointed some crucial elements of this list:

1. If you're a competetive player, you have to eliminate the Temple Guard. Even if he only casts 4 of his six spells, the Slann throws out an average of 11 PD a turn on his own, more than Ras' army can put out with all its characters alive and on top gear. This added to the fact that he gives the rest of the army tremendous staying power with his 12" radius general's leadership/BSB ability and that he often gets the Howler Wind makes it very difficult to operate efficiently around his unit. Furthermore, it is practically impossible to score a massacre without taking out his unit, as they occupy around half the points value of the army. When I'm wanting the enemy to charge his unit as an anchor, that's a good thing.

2. Spell selection is a bit tricky. If the Slann gets a rubbish selection of spells, then he is likely to be greatly reduced in efficiency, reducing the army's hitting power by an extreme margin. So I'll need strong strategy in rolling for my spells.

3. The army is actually at its most dangerous at short range, but not in combat. In the first game against Ras, my magical missiles, Salamander and javelin fire wiped three units of Mounted Daemonettes and a unit of Shades off the face of the earth (the fourth unit of Mounted Daemonettes was killed to a man... well... woman-thing... by seven skinks who had been frenzied by that Slaanesh spell :)). Although the frenzy thing was lucky, my shooting was only perhaps slightly above average - against non-ward-saved troops, it should be the business every time :).

4. The Kroxigor work extremely well in tandem with the Slann's unit, because, contrary to my original thoughts, they're b***ards to get rid of. In an army with 32 Skinks, a Kroxigor unit can practically always be in a position where it can charge you and outmanouvre you, but you can't even see it. With two of them working in tandem, you need to be afraid... very afraid B)

One final dilemma presents me, on which I'm not sure what to do. I'd appreciate any advice.

Do I cut down my skinks, dropping the Brave from my Terradon unit and one of the units of non-scouting little guys, to make the other unit scouting and to add a 3rd Salamander - or do I keep the skink configuration the way it is?

I was under the impression that the null stone only worked on models in B2B, which isn't the slann, or generally isn't. Something me and Chili were also working on was the good old slann challange. The one thing that rips up TG are CC characters, but no one can kill that bloody slann in HTH. You need to kill the TG and break the slann and run his little froggy self down. Hence why we came to the conclusion that the Slaan should step forth and challange/soak up attacks from hardcore CC units. With 8 wounds, a 4+ ward and T5 it would be hard to get the slaan to half wound lets alone kill the bigh floating frog.

Furthermore I find the pointing out of one or two race specific examples to be, the biggest pile of poo. Who cares. There are always combos to be scared of, but picking on those that are part of a army that isn't hugely prolific that you have a high chance of not playing at GT is about as productive as Bashing your head against a wall. As for your combos then I have a few pointers for you. Your putting a BSB and a pirnce in one unit, well you both aren't playing very skillfully and are likely to get that unit severed. Furthermore you simpley don't have the magic ability to handle the slanns output, and will find that bloody howler wind, and myriad of magic missiles taking your wonder unit, to a wonder trio. As for your Uber magic man. Dangerous, but then you only have your magic/guneline of doom, and it takes just one CC to destroy your whole army. Also a drain magic spell could be very nice indeed. As for HE beuilding the nastiest lists in the game you are, well wrong. That would be Lizards followed by chaos I do belive. Certainly lizards at No. 1. Phils GT list being a testament to that.

Chili is right about having to kill the TG unit. It is nigh on impossibel to massacre the army without removing that unit, but if you do, yoou have the game in the bag (almost). One must also not forget that that massive unit causes fear, which cancels the advanatges of the dead and the deamons, as wel as ogres for that matter, but when combined with a Kroxies charge it has the power to autobreak even the sexiest unit! Another idea we were working on was against armies like Druchii, CoP, WE and so on would be to place the Sllies 12" behind the slanns unit, which would give Chili the ability to toast any naughty unit going for the rear, or give them a rear charge should the TG still be there, and of course the good old redirect by getting in the way. Our first game (where I go mashed up in to tiny pieces) illustrated to me the true power of Chili's list. I had him enveloped from all side, just waiting to make my charges, and then blam, my army was gone. The short ranged fire power, uber LD, and magic just erradicates things that hover about. Furthermore the effective use of Skinks as screens works wonders, both because the TG don't need/want to charge and because the Kroxies can charge through them - ouch.

Chili, I have been thinking about it and I am still pretty torn, but I would be tempted to go for the sallies. It gives you more fire power, a higher US and a better CC output. Try it before you buy it. ;) Having said that, part of the frustration of your list is having all those bloody skinks milling around, cuasing a nuisance but who aren't worth any points! Arghh. As for spells, the my advice is this, don't neccesarily take SOS, like agaist me you didn't use it both games, its really not required in most situations, aaginst really magic heavy armies, or those that you can see a need for then yes, but against most armies I wouldn't bother, which gurantees you will get at leat 2 of the three magic missiles on the life lore, possibly all three!