Title: Killing high armour save troops in 1K
blood dragon! - May 24, 2004 04:59 PM (GMT)
I have recently been stuck on this prooblem as, although you'd think banshees would do the trick: it's slaneeshi chaos. He only has 2 dispel dice and so I guess its going to be curse of years all the way. Heres his list:
Exalted champion, SoS, enchanted shield, chaos armour, mark
12 chosen with mark, full c.
5 Chosen knights with mark, full c.
3 dragon orges
Small.
Elite.
No banshee wail!
P.S. what would you do in larger games.
Xarhain - May 24, 2004 05:23 PM (GMT)
killing blow?
A unit of grave guard, black knights and a wight lord with sword of kings should do the trick. With such a small army just raise a load of skellies against his 2 dispel dice, try to hold his units up for a turn, and bang him with killing blow.
Dragon ogres usually get womped by combat resolution. Try to beat them by a big amount, but obviously dont rely on autobreak.
More than that I can't say, I have zero experience using VC so far, so my advice is complete theory.
Dark Lord Jim - May 25, 2004 07:05 PM (GMT)
Nice big units of zombies and skeletons, led by a Wight Lord with the Sword of the Kings or a Vampire with a great weapon. Even if the character fails to kill anything (which is fairly unlikely), you should still be able to win combat purely on ranks, standard and outnumber.
My Strigoi Thralls have munched through chosen warriors very quickly on numerous occasions, but only when supported by a mass of zombies at their backs.
Cheers,
DLJ
Scrappy - June 2, 2004 04:00 AM (GMT)
That list is absolutely cake to beat. With a combination of DLJ's advice and my "how to kill cav armies" (see Tactics Discussion) with the exclusion of the banshee, you should tear them apart. This chaos player is clearly inexperienced, however it's difficult to spot his flaws if you haven't played against it often (I have).
This is what I would do against your opponent. Get two necromancers and a hero of your choice (vamp thrall, wight lord, whatever), and get the book and whatever other bound items you can to push his power dice. With the book, you should have no problem getting a charge, but FIRST you need to tie up the knights and the ogres!
Okay, stick with me, this gets complicated.
Objective: hit the knights and dragon ogres on their flank while black knights tear apart chosen warriors. How would you do this? Well, easy. As I said before, he doesn't have enough dispel to hold up against your summons. First, summon a 7+ unit of zombies on the knights' flank. He will most likely dispel this, and if he doesn't he's a dumbass anyway. Try the same thing after he's exausted it and you should get at least one off (on average, I've had bad luck) and then use the book to hit his flank. Those knights are now tied up for pretty much the rest of the game if you keep summoning onto that unit. Repeat that process for the ogres, and now it's a unit of knights vs your army... baaahahahah. Well, easy enough, kill those knights in CR or otherwise with your melee hero or break them with your black knights. After this, you should be able to take out his ogres and knights with the rest of your force on their flank.
This is a lot more difficult than it sounds, but you'll be VASTLY outnumbering him. There are other tactics, such as massing ghouls onto his ogres (I'm not sure what their save is, but poison will help). I'll post a sample list for you after this for your modification.
Scrappy
Scrappy - June 2, 2004 04:09 AM (GMT)
1 Necromancer @ 115 Pts
General; Magic Level 2
Black Periapt [15]
1 Necromancer @ 125 Pts
Magic Level 2
Book of Arkhan [25]
1 Blood Dragon Vampire Thrall @ 114 Pts
Blood Dragon; Great Weapon
Flayed Hauberk [30]
6 Black Knights @ 182 Pts
Barding; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Champion
22 Zombies @ 142 Pts
Standard
22 Zombies @ 142 Pts
Standard
8 Ghouls @ 64 Pts
8 Ghouls @ 64 Pts
5 Dire Wolves @ 50 Pts
Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 4
Models in Army: 74
Total Army Cost: 998
Benedictus - June 2, 2004 06:40 AM (GMT)
I can't believe he's taken two units of chosen in such a low points game. <_< Spank him with much fury.
Dark Lord Jim - June 2, 2004 07:13 AM (GMT)
That's the kind of list we'd be looking for. My personal preference would be Strigoi over the Blood Dragon, but a S7 tin-opener is generally a good thing.
I'd drop the dire wolves, against that list all that will happen is for them to get destroyed very very quickly. Use the spare points to beef up your Black Knights a bit more: Banner of the Barrows would be really useful, or another couple of knights so you can afford to take some casualties.
The Ghouls may also be of dubious usefulness, although they get many attacks they'll struggle to get through the armour of the Chaos troops. Still useful for diverting charges and preventing march moves though, I think you could again probably stand to lose some in favour of even more Black Knights. Scrape together enough points and get a second unit of BK if you can! ;)
Zombies are the right way to go against this army. Skeletons are more expensive, but will have no (or practically no) armour save against the Chaos troops, and will be striking after them anyway. Let the zombies provide the ranks and standard and outnumber and you'll be fine.
Now go give him a good trouncing!
Cheers,
DLJ
blood dragon! - June 30, 2004 06:42 PM (GMT)
Yes I did kick him......WO HOOOOOO. In the end we played 1,500pts and he took:
Sorcerrer (I can't spell!), power familiar, mark of slaneesh
Exalted champion, beserker swork, enchanted shield, mark of tzeech
19 chosen warriors, full c., raptorous standard, mark of slaneesh
8 chosen knights, full c., warbanner, mark of slaneesh
3 dragon ogres
I used:
Necro, BP, DS, Lv2 (went for a low magic army due to not relieing on magic but in the end very much so outmagiced him: getting 6 and 1 for spells).
Strigoi, iron sinews
Wight BSB, SoK, GoB, hv ar
23 zombies, st, mu
9 dire wolves, ch (these are now out of my list which I will publish soon!)
9 ghouls, ch
15 grave guard (6-6-4), fullc., banner of the barrows.
8 BK, full c. warbanner
5 BK, ch
banshee: this list has now been adapted (yes I will publish it soon).
I will say what happened in the next few weeks!
I held up his knights (who were deployed 4-4) and killed one using my ghouls (who fled as a charge reaction), dire wolves and then rallied ghouls.
I killed his mage when my strigoi jumped out of his unit onto the lone mage (and he couldn't flee as a charge reaction due to being immune to phycology, it does have its bad points)!
I halted the dragon ogres with the banshee (who kept on losing combat by one but being fine due to the battle standard) and.....
I whipped the chosen with my grave guard and smaller unit of BK (both in the front) while the strigoi charged in the rear. The strigoi and BK bounced off due to their rapturous standard but allowed me to out number him while the wight lord chopped his lord in two (three times, I must have had all the luck you lot lost out on) while the GG killed three chosen and my necro cursed his knights (who seemed quite lonely). I didn't even get to use the wight lords gem of blood!
Thank you everyone for your help!!!!!!!!
(Ohh and I have to play him again!!! Do chaos ever give up?)
I will use necro, SoD 140
WL, GoB, SoK, BS (I REALLY LIKE THIS COMBO!)
wraith (casket of ages) steed (maybe better than him!)
15 z's, st
16 z's, st
15 GG (as above)
2 spirit hosts (wraith tags along)
Banshee 1000pts (the army not the banshee although is she was toughness and strength 10 with a wail with a range of 24" and non undead I'd pay that for her!)
(He has let me use the necromancer appendix list.....hee ha haarr!)
Thanks again.