hi guys, i'm going to battle against 2000 points VC in about a week, and i dont really know how to beat those pesky undead.......

his list is:
1 strigoi count, probably curse of renevant + iron sinews
1 strigoi trall, with bat form
1 lvl2 necromancer with book of arkhan
1 lvl 2 necromancer with 1 or 2 dispell scrolls

2x 20 skellies with both full command
2x 5 dire wolves
2x 5 ghouls
1x 9 ghouls

8 Black knights
3 Spirit hosts

1 Banshee

i've seen him fight with this list before against Sander Thijssen's dwarfs (you remember him from WD) and he kicked his butt........

my list will be:
1 highborn on cold one knight, with heavy armor, shield, SDC, Gauntlet of power, and the crown of black iron
1 noble with armour of darkness and sword of might
1 sorceress lvl2 with darkstar cloack and dispell scroll

19 corsairs with full command
12 crossbowmen with shields
5 dark riders with crossbows inc. musician

20 executioners with full command
7 CoK's with full command and banner of murder
1 CoC, crew had spears + crossbows
6 shades inc. bloodshade

1 Bolt thrower
1 Bolt thrower

please help me!!!!!

I wouldn't say that his list is particularly strong, but it looks like it's not going to be too difficult for him to take out your list. He has 8 dice and a bound spell in magic, while you have 3 to dispel, plus a single scroll, so you can expect him to be casting 3 or 4 spells per turn, while you can probably stop one, generally the book I'd imagine.

As well, you've got a fully ranked unit of execs and one of corsairs as your only infantry, while his list has spirit hosts to tie one up while ghouls get a flank; basically, your infantry will be overwhelmed while his vampires take out your knights and war machines.

Against vamps, you need good magic defense and, if you're going to fight the skeletons, the ability to rack up a lot of CR, which you don't have. Witch elves would be ideal in this game, as would an assassin, as rarely as that happens. Rune of Khaine, Manbane, and an extra hand weapon will set him up to take on whatever he can send your way, as long as you don't let him get the spirit host into the combat with him.

I do have an painted assasin model, you think i should use it?
also i have got a unit of 20 spearmen with shields...... if you can make me a better armylist to fight against this strigoi army, please tell me vriishnak :lol:

I think the assassin would do well, assuming you can keep him from tying it up with the spirit host. Even the knights would have to worry about 5 S5 attacks hitting on 3's before they attack. Ideally though, you'd manage to lure his count in, and take it down. Of course, if he sets the count up in one of the skeleton units, you can line up across and go smashing in yourself. ;)

For this fight I'd probably un-tool your general, just giving him a lance instead of the gauntlet; armour's not that big of a concern, and the points could be better spent. Doing that and losing 8 execs should get you the points for your warriors without losing much effectiveness in the army as a whole, and numbers are something you need to worry about in this game.

I think your crossbows can go too, as most of the shooting will be done by RBT's or be ineffective.

You might need to drop some more to make up the points, of course. If so, I don't think the shades are necessary here, as the extent of the good targets available to them are dire wolves, likely reduced below effectiveness by one volley from the RBT's.

thanks for the advise Vriishnak, i've come up with a new list:
and ehh.... what am i going to do with the fell bats, if the RBT's are already shooting up the dire wolves? i thought that crossbowmen would come in handy for this job... but i didn't put them in the list........
i think its better if my highborn does have the gauntlet, just for beating up the barded black knights....(after charging them with banner of murder) the crown is indeed not really nessacary.... so i left it out, leaving enough points for my spearmen ^_^
also, i thought about the magical disadvantage you mentioned in your first post...... but i dont really have enough points left in the list to put in another sorceress....


anyway, here's the list:

1 highborn, GoP, cold one, shield, SDC.
1 sorceress on foot, darkstar cloak, dispell scroll
1 noble on foot, sword of might, armour of darkness
1 assasin with 2nd handweapon, rune of khaine and manbane

19 corsairs full command
20 spearmen full command and shields
5 dark riders, repeater crossbows, musician

7 cold one knights, banner of murder, full command
1 cold one chariot, crew has repeater crossbows and spears
12 execuioners with full command

2 reaper bolt throwers

do you think this list will do? (not mentioning the aspect of luck in the game....)

finally, one more question.... i dont really think my assasin can kill that strigoi count the turn he reveals himself..... okay, he had 5 attack, hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's, but that guy also has regeneration :(
do you think he can kill him without too much luck?

You know that the Assasin and the highborn are useless, i would try the ld 9 instead of going ld 10. Anyway, you should use atleast 9 coldone knights with nooble in it.

I'm a VC player and have played lot of games against DE, and my weak point is the fast movement of DE, you can flank easy a skel unit with dark riders and if you charge in front with your cold one knighst or Witch Elves they will be crushed easy. Just watch out for the fellbats and spirithost who can keep your cavalery or flank units for some rounds. You dont want a fear causing unit in our flank or rear.

and have some dispelscroll ready, if he manage to summon a unit of skeleton behind your repeating bolt throwers you loose easy 200points.

...you can't just say that things are useless. The assassin will tear through the strigoi if he ends up fighting them, and his 5 attacks are nothing to scoff at even if he fights skeletons. The highborn isn't ideal for the whole army, but if he fights the black knights he should crush them, as long as he doesn't get charged.

As to unit size, 8 is almost as good as 10, and saves ~50 points for the rest of the army.

Also, in order to raise behind the RBT's, he needs to be near the RBT's. I think he's got enough units capable of hunting down the necros, even if they're hiding in units, and I don't think that his opponent will be risking his 400 VP character, who also happens to make the army crumble on death, to get rid of the RBT's.

okay, it IS possible to kill that strigoi, and if i dont get to kill him with my assasin, i can always give it another shot smashing him with my noble (S5).......

so vriishnak, are you saying my list is good as it is now? :D

I think what zpitt may have been trying to do there is try to keep up the VC end by giving dodgy advice :rolleyes:

I'm not so sure that the Assassin will be able to mince the Strigoi. He effectively has two ward saves, so you will have to hope your opponent is unlucky enough to fail on several occasions. I'm pretty confident that the assassin would not be able to survive a retaliatory strike from the Count.

I'd really like to see some Witch Elves in there, and some more fast cavalry. VC generally have a hard time dealing with fast cavalry (banshee's being the main method I personally use to counteract them), whilst the sheer number of attacks and immunity-to-psychology-whilst-frenzied granted to the witch elves are really, really nasty against VC rank and file.

Question for you: with your current list, how do you intend to take out the spirit hosts? You don't exactly have the magical power to do so....

Just remember, take out his rank bonus and you'll have those blocks dissolved in no time!

Cheers,
DLJ

yeah DLJ, i know that witch elves would come in handy for this battle.... problem is: i dont have any
i dont have the money to buy any
i dont like the models......

as for the spirit hosts.... i was thinking of doombolt or chillwind to cast upon them. but just checking my armybuilder and seeing those guys have 4 wounds each... i guess that IS going to be a problem :(

He still has some advantages, mostly in the flying vampire, but I think that, with good maneuvering and careful setup, you should be able to pull off a win. I do have a couple of tips on things that I would try to do over the course of the game, and I'll list them here for you. Some are probably fairly obvious, but it never hurts to get them stuck in your head before you start setting up.

1) Mage hunting. This is going to be important; he's starting with a major magic advantage, and you need to get rid of his necros ASAP. If he's hiding them in skeleton units, don't be afraid to sacrifice your DR's to kill one. A front charge should let three of them attack him, and assuming you have spears, you've got 3 WS4 S4 attacks from the riders, and if necessary the horses as well. It might not seem smart to lose a maneuvering advantage, but his magic is so important that I wouldn't even consider not trying it. If they aren't in units, use your crossbows. I can't emphasize this enough; if he has mages after turn 2/3, you've probably already lost the game.

2) Avoid the Spirit Host. They're M6, so if you don't prepare from the start they can outmaneuver you no problem. Remember that they can move through terrain, and that they're immune to non-magical attacks, so line them up with someone with magic to take them out of the game before they tie up your infantry. Even more important is to not, in any circumstance, let them get to combat with the unit your assassin is hiding in. Being immune to his attacks and having 4 per base coming back, they'll kill him no problem, and you can't afford that.

3) Lure his vampires. I would guess that his count goes into a skeleton unit, so line up your corsairs across from one unit and the spears from the other, and hide the assassin in the corsairs, probably. I would imagine that he'd be more afraid of the volume of attacks from the corsairs, especially when combined with the noble, and would use his vampire to support in that combat, assuming his skeletons can deal with the spears. The assassin being revealed will prevent him from challenging, probably, meaning that if he survives his attacks, your noble can hit him too. Once the general is gone you've probably won the game, so do everything you can to lure and kill him, even if you lose the corsair unit. As you said, the assassin may not kill him, but if he takes off a couple of wounds your noble should be able to finish the job.

I'm still not convinced that the gauntlet is necessary if you're hunting his knights. Remember that they'll only have a 2+ save, modified to 5+ if you charge with a lance. Your 4 attacks should take down 2 or 3 of them, even before your knights go, and you should win the combat no problem. The 60 points could be used to increase the numbers in your infantry to prevent autobreaking.

The tips I gave are the things you need to keep in mind - the ghouls should be easily dealt with once the bigger threats are gone. If you have to, use a chariot to go ghoul-hunting, or devote one of your units to tying them up while you deal with the rest. Remember that, if you kill his general and mages, the game should be yours, and everything else comes after that.

Thanks for all the help vriishnak, and ofcourse you too DLJ. These things i'll surely keep in mind! That guy i'm going to fight is one and all confidence in beating me.... so that will give me a slight advantage as well i hope, bcause he'll underestimate my army :P

one last thing vriishnak... if my CoK's charge his barded Black Knights, they'll have a 4+ armor save left. S5 = -2 on armor save.....(yes unfortunately CoK's only have S3...)

so i need to use my DR unit to at least whipe out one of his mages.... that will surely come as a suprise to him, so i think that'l work.

but how am i going to kill the other mage? most of the time he keeps it in his skeleton unit, and if he gets it out for fighting or something, he lets him stay very close to the skeleton unit, leaving me unable to wound him, let alone kill him.

Not so sure that the DR suicide charge would work.... you'd only be able to get two in base contact, not three, and that will not do you any favours. Personally, I think that would be a waste of a unit of fast cavalry. Better to get the unit in the front and flank, and take out the necromancer with the front unit during your main assault.

The ghouls should probably be your main target for chillwind. If anything will be covering the flanks it will be them, so stripping his skirmish screen should open up a few gaps for you to exploit.

Cheers,
DLJ

Yeah, they'll have 4+ against your knights, but remember the highborn is S4 base. if he takes down 2, and your knights get another 2, and maybe the cold ones kill 1, he's only got the captain hitting back, and even if he kills one, you've won combat by 6 and the rest of the knights melt.

Killing the first mage with a suicide charge will work, as long as he doesn't see it coming. Try to disguise it by angling so you barely have LOS to his unit, or by looking like you're going for a target they could actually beat (ghouls, if he keeps them by his skellies for support).
The second one is harder. Remember that if it leaves the unit, you can legally target if it's either the closest target or the unit sheltering it is in combat. Charge the nearby skeletons with something and open up with your RBT's.

I don't know if you have the points, but if you drop the gauntlet and add a few shades, their shooting can take it out once he leaves the unit, and they might be able to worry his bats/wolves/what-have you. Just try not to let them get charged and you should do fine.

Last point. If you've seen him play before, does his count go with skeletons? If he doesn't you might have some trouble, but I can't see him using him alone without the Bat Form. Oh, and be careful that he doesn't surprise you with a charge from his thrall. Remember that he can kill your DR's, and if he gets them before they kill a necro, you'll have a much harder game.

DLJ: Even if it's only two riders, I think they should be able to kill the necro, and they likely won't even be killed in the process. Even if only a couple get away, they can still do some of the things you'd want them to.
Also, are you sure the cav bases are wider than infantry ones? It's always seemed to line up with three, going corner to corner.

Yes he certainly lets his Count go with a skellie unit. as well as his necro's.
The position of his thrall is a bit unpredictable........ he sometimes lets him in the 2nd unit of skellies to fulfill his role as a "mass elf murderer". But i've also seen him do this trick with him: just before his skeleton unit gets charged, he gets him out, and flies right to the war machines :( so that'll be a little nasty.....

One last point: do you think using my dispell scroll is worth using if my dark riders are being threatened by magic of his necromancers/Count?? (after attempting to dispell the worst of his spells ofcourse)

It depends on the situation and what spells he's got in reserve. If he rolled up a Van Hels, for example, it's a lot more important to stop him charging in, probably. Same thing if he's set up to raise a unit to threaten to tie up a unit or something, but generally you need your mage hunters alive, so it could be worthwhile.

About the base size thing, yeah I'm sure. Undead infantry are on 20mm wide bases, cavalry models are all on 25mm wide bases.

Nothing else to add, unfortunately ^_^

Cheers,
DLJ

Battle result: i got massacred, as i aspected..... :( :wacko:

my assasin just couldn't get to his count, because when i charged his unit with my corsairs, he first challenged me with his skeleton captain, wich i accepted with my noble (the corsair champ became a grandpa after a curse of years.....). and after that he challenged my assasin with his necromancer wich was in the unit also...
so i got rid of the necromancer and the skellie captain, but his count just schred apart my corsair unit, allong with come ghouls in my flank...
He hid his other necromancer in a forest, wich i just couldn't reach with my executioners.... (they first beat a unit of dire wolves)
my dark riders got chased by spirit hosts the whole game, and my bolt throwers + sorceress got eaten by fell bats.
my highborn together with the cold one knights failed their stupidity test twice.... and all his black knights did was run away from them
the spearmen eventually got beaten after a long zombie fight....

so you can say i sucked really bad....