Hi I've noticed that on the GW forums there's all the DE players going "BOO-HOO!! My lovely DE are broken". :( I don't want to start a flame war but How? How are DE broken? I look at the DE book and they look find yet people are always complaining that the units aren't strong enough, HE get this so why don't we etc. I was wondering if any of the players on this site could give me an insight to this. Thanks.

I don't play Dark Elves, but I've played against them many times. In my opinion, the Dark Elves are awesome. They have good cavalry, good infantry, awesome monsters, and very powerful magic. I don't know the exact details, but I really think that the Dark Elves are just as ballanced as any other race.

It's mostly armour and magic items that they complain about. I personally don't think the DE are broken at all. They're awesome! I may even do a small army of them after my HE army gets to a good size. Most of the elites only have 6+ saves, not that it makes much difference from the 5+ of HE elites, and the executioners still have killing blow. Witch Elves are amazing, with 3 poison attacks each (4 on the hag), WS5, you'll never need 5's to hit, and an I6 makes them great. Cauldron of blood can boost them even further too :rolleyes: . I don't know much about the magic item situation, but with items like the black amulet, it can't be that bad. I once saw that item take on a unit of grail knights, the DE player (Joel, not on this board) got really lucky with the ward saves...

Well, I used to spend a lot of time at Druchii.net, the place responsible for starting the petition to change the book. If I remember correctly, the main problem involved some of the fluff. High Elves are a magical race, as are Chaos, and Dark Elves being a combination of the two (well, pretty much) it was expected that they would have good magic and good magic items. They had very restrictive lores and the Orcs and Goblins had more Magic Items. Also, the Exectutioners are depicted as heavy armoured, powerful fighters who cleave through the enemy. With a 6+ save, this doesn't match up. They were only good as a kind of small 'skirmish' group, which doesn't fit the profile.

There were some other reasons, including the fact that Spearmen are useless (with shields, they cost the same as Corsairs but are nowhere near as good). I eventually decided not to play Dark Elves and I am now a Lizardmen player, mainly because making a deal with Gav is probably the same as forfitiing your soul to the devil.

Yeah, a weakness of dark elves is armour and toughness. They die pretty quick. They should be able to use any lore other than light, life, and heavens since they are high elves biologically. I think they need some more pansy rules, though. Like, executioners should strike in initiative order like swordmasters. They have many things to balance this out, though. Cold ones, chariots, heroes on cold ones, hydras, dragons, manticores (?) all cause fear or terror. Their missile units aren't too shabby, since they have BS4. And two Reapers is pretty awesome. Corsairs are a very powerful unit, only suseptable to magic because of their cloaks. They have a 5+ HtH save, a 4+ Missile save, but only a 6+ Spell save. The spearmen are good, just not as good as they should be. They don't fight in three ranks like the high elves, so they're not very good when charging.

When High Elf spearmen charge, they only use 2 ranks. Otherwise they use 3.

People always whine, dark elves just a bit more ;)

Seriously though, it's what you get when a few people start making a lot of fuss over something: a lot of others jump on the train, even if they don't know where it is going. That's what happened with the "dark elves are broken" whine.

Dark elves are not broken, but like all elves, they require skill to use. And that's the real problem: all armies are balanced, some just have to be used a bit differently from a sledgehammer...

I guess some people just dont want to learn and would rather whine... B)

I think people who play races made up of foolish, chaos worshipping, blood drinking, destiny denying idiots are prone to whine more than others.

I own all the book army books that is and 40k books to but If you compare the price between the DE and HE and what the magic Items there not all to getter that great in my mind. Thow I will have to take another look at the books..... :blink:

Looking at the army book I don't think they're broken, I just wanted your opinion. Although I did think the executioners could do with better armour, and maybe the spearmen could fight in 3 ranks like HE after all they were originally from Ulthuan. What do you think?

(As a DE player and Druchii.net Ambassador, I hope I can get my point across without blowing a fuse. <_< )

People asume when others say "complain". We do not complain. A complaint is something that is random, unorganised, and usually not true. Our steps in contacting Gav and GW have earned us (Druchii.net) a reputation in the Warhammer community. I think this is great and well deserved.

The main reason for our objections is fluff purposes.
1. We are decendants of the High Elves. Yet, they know stronger magic(all of the lores?), while we are restricted.

2. Point costs are all off. One of our rare units, Black Guard, currently costs 16 points, and houses a halberd and heavy amour, along with normal elf stats.

3. Fluff. We are cruel and unusual, and that does not show. No slave troops, Executioners are told to be something differant than shown in stats, and other smaller thingssuch as Spearmen and Corsairs.


I hope I preserved the Druchii.net Revision here.

When I started the post I wasn't having a go at DE players, honest. I was just wondering why everyone was complaining, and reading the posts here and on the GW site I think DE could do with a revision. But the problem with this is many players will think that every army will be revised, ok some might need a few adjustments but I think that most of the army books have been done great.

To look at the points you brought up:

1. I agree you should be allowed more choice of the lores, but not all of them. I mean a dark elf army using bright magic :blink: it doesn't fit with the fluff.

2. The points cost could be dropped a bit for certain units, and maybe the armour on the executioners could be increased. Also I think that spearmen should get some kind of special rule to make them more of a choice, coz all the DE armies I've seen all have the same for core - corsairs and crossbowmen and not many spearmen.

3. I also think the inclusion of some sort of slave unit would be cool B) and would totally fit with the fluff and theme of the army, also I like the story in the back of the book (the one where slaves are slaughtered for terrain). I also think that the Witch Elves could be better, ie maybe a 6+ ward save (probably for being caught up it the moment of battle).

These are just my thoughts, but one point I want to make is that they shouldn't be to much like HE, as the DE hate them and I think that they would try to make sure that they are nothing or as lest like their cousins as possible . But agin these are just my thoughts.

One of the main problem is that the Dark elves are really a no-brainers choices army. What to take in the heros section? either a noble or a sorceress(limit since they arent that goood) in core, a lot of people take spearmen because its cheap but we all really know corsairs are the best along with dark riders. A lot of people take them, the coldone knight, they are good but hey need a heroes, leadership to get ride of that stupidity, DE are an tactical army, they cant afford to have an unit being stupid at the wrong moment, Same for chariots. executioners are bad, they got so low armour + low T, they die if you even look at them... For the rare, Black Guard dont do enought for the points they cost. War hydra, well im not sure, but i never use it. Cauldron of blood, the army is designed to be aggressive but the cauldron sorta stop it, along with witch elves( they have to stay in range, bad, really bad, they get shoot to peice) The most viable choice is the reaper bolt thrower, the no-brainer army is there


plus, they got bad magic item, even badder enchanted item

QUOTE (Arch-Seer @ May 13 2003, 09:47 PM)

1. We are decendants of the High Elves. Yet, they know stronger magic(all of the lores?), while we are restricted. 2. Point costs are all off. One of our rare units, Black Guard, currently costs 16 points, and houses a halberd and heavy amour, along with normal elf stats. 3. Fluff. We are cruel and unusual, and that does not show. No slave troops, Executioners are told to be something differant than shown in stats, and other smaller things such as Spearmen and Corsairs.

1. Something tells me that people just want access to heavens magic, but Dark Elves should be able to use fire and beasts at least. By the way, I never use lore of heavens. :D

2. Black Guard cost a lot of points because they are stubborn and hate everyone, not just High Elves. I don't have the army book, but I think their stats are average for elf elites.

3. Slaves aren't included because of the same reason skaven don't use non-skaven-slaves. I do agree that executioners should change though.


In other responses, I would hate to see Dark Elf spearmen get the 'fight in three ranks rule' (yes, I am a High Elf player), as it would take away from the High Elf identity. I would hope that if they do get a new special rule, it would be something original, not something borrowed from another army.

I agree that Dark Elf spearmen need a new rule to make them more playable. I mean, HE players don't like to admit it, but the Druchii came from Ulthuan and are High Elves in their genetics. They studied under the same tower, and learned the same magic. They would obviously cast aside useless magicks of the heavens, light, and life. Executioners need at least heavy armour, light the swordmasters and maybe a rule like the swordmasters rule. A sea dragon cloak and fighting in I order be great. You'd have to up the point cost, though.

We did get a rule to balance the fight in three ranks rule. Garrison formation.

I thought that was only in the garrison army or was you talking about the 5th ed, you could do it then couldn't you?

I think that Executioners should have Heavy Armour (which they will in an upcoming annual), as well as a few magic items here and there. I don't think that they are a bad army persay, just a little underdevelopped as compared to some of the other armies that are out there. Maybe decrease the points of Black Guard by 1 or 2 at the max, not much, but enough to make them more worth their points. And make the sorceresses like chaos sorcerers, either Dark Magic, or Fire, Shadows or Death. (Please note that I don't know which lores that they can have).

Other than that, I think that they are a very characterful army, but lack certain aspects that would make them better.

And something that counts for both High and dark elves: spearmen minis definitely look like wearing heavy armour. They both carry mail coats, a breastplate and vambraces... Orcs carry a leather jerkin and they have light armour...

I now It was only a matter of time befor this topic came here...Thow the dark Elves Did get the stiffed win it came to magic Items :blink:

When i first started playing the DE i thought they were unbalenced and costed way too much. I looked aroud at the other races and realized that they all had stong points to them ex. high elves have magic, orks/goblins have numbers, dwarves toughness and technology. But what do the DE have? THat i figured out was fear. A lot of their units cause fear or terror so i built my army around that. Some of u might say that that was stupid because vs undead its useless or you cant count on it durring battle but my army is not fully designed along that purpose it has other strong aspects too. so about the points and stuff they could be deduced a bit and the spearmen definately need a pansey rule like fight in 3 ranks(btw totally unfair and PANSEYLIKE!). I think some slaves would be nice too. And a shrubbery with a nice little path running down the middle(monty python). but overall the DEs strong points make up for their points if you use them right










:ph43r: DARK ELVES RULE :ph43r:

They shouldn't get the 3 ranks rule because that's a High Elf thing. They need something that's more destinctive of their particular race, not just reflecting the High Elves. You should have a rule that Spearmen get +1 to all rolls on a charge or +1 strength on a charge or something like that.

Fear isn't completely useless against undead because a unit that causes fear is also immune to it. The fear causing units would be more reliable against undead. Besides, cold ones, even if they don't cause fear to skeletons, can still anihilate them.

it seems like dark elf players just want all the bonuses of playign high elves without the bad parts. you never hear an asur general complaining about how he doesnt get a bunch of frenzied woman, or a fire breathing rare choice. if dakr elf players want swordmasters and spearmen who fight in 3 ranks (neither of which I use) then they should play high elves!

i dont need any new things to beat your pansey high elves. iv won almost every battle iv fought against them, even with that stupid stoic rule!

Yes, but in our latest battle where you used some of our friend's Dwarves, it seemed like I was winning because about 50% of your units were fleeing.

BTW, does hate mean that you can't panic?

hatred allows you to reroll all failed to hit rolls against the hated unit in the first round of combat. You also have to pursue if possible. Mounts are unaffected.

OK, I just wasn't clear on that. Now I know that we were playing legally. There have been so many instances when we've played wrong, so I just wanted to be clear about that.

Khrangar gave me this link, and I thought you guys may like to see it.

Druchii

The only part I hate is the Cold One Chariots can now be taken as a 2 for 1 choice.

seemingly now as it is official on the GW forums that the DE do have a revision, some of it looks ok and not too unbalancing vs HEs, but the points redux is too much IMO and makes the HE archers and spearmen seem to low
I cant really compare them to WEs yet as theyre not out completely yet

Well, I'm new here so, Hi ppl! :D (nice smileys)

The Dark Elf list has many problems, not involving just units.

All Elvenkind is known for their fondness and natural ability to tame the winds of magic. However, Dark Elves can use just three lores out of 9 possible. A third of a thing that they should have naturally is unrealistic.

Executioners, the old problem. They really should have Heavy Armour and mostly because they need protection but because their models are clad in Heavy armour. it's more a WYSIWYG problem. Of course, elite troops with light armour are just ridiculous. Even scouts, who usually don't wear any armour are clad in Ligh armour to have Freedom of movement.

Cold one knights, the heavy cavalry of the dark elves, MUST rely on a character to succeed in their mission. LD 8 is fine on paper but when you do the maths you realise that 33% of the times, your uber-cavalry unit fails the stupidity test. It's a risk we may take but at least, reduce the chance of that happening.

The magic items are a complete nonsense. Have you ever looked at the Dark Sword for example? it's.. insane really..
The Albion magic items came to complete a little the list, but even with the first place, we were given only one, out of a small number (4?) that was worth.. the rest is, and sorry for the name, a complete piece of s*i*.

Many other things are taken as broken. We wish to make the list a playable one. The alterations we wish to introduce are just mere adjustments to improve both side's fun.

I introduce myself as Anaryin, The Gatherer of Souls, Ambassador for Druchii.net and I give you all a warm HI! and I truly hope we can discuss this and other issues politely and, of course, with some fun along it. B)

Welcome Anaryin. I looked over Druchii.net and read some of these things that they're trying to change. I agree with some of it, but not with others.

With the lores of magic, they should have access to a few others. I think that they should be able to use Fire because it's neither good nor evil. They should have Beast magic because they have beastmasters and because, like fire, it's neither good nor evil. They should be able to use Heavens because the title doesn't refer to "angelic magic". The term "heavens" in this case is just referring to the sky. So it's neutral. Metal is neutral as well, so they should use it. They shouldn't be able to use Light and Life, for obvious reasons.

Heavy Armor would be good for Executioners because of their model. They are somewhat expensive compared to Swordmasters. Swordmasters have WS6, strike with innitiative, and have a 5+ save. The least they could do for DE is give them the 6+ save. It's only fair.

The Cold One Knights problem has affected my friend Nambulis a few times. A higher LD would work for Cold One Knights.

wat do u guys think of the Black guards new rules , especially when compared to the HE Phoenix Guard? i think it makes them slightly more powerful

Why are you comparing them to Phoenix Guard? Different army, different uses, no reason to compare.

QUOTE (gandalf @ Jun 6 2003, 04:53 AM)

wat do u guys think of the Black guards new rules , especially when compared to the HE Phoenix Guard? i think it makes them slightly more powerful

It does make them more powerful, mainly because Phoenix Guard are practically useless(unused). HE will/might be getting a revison one day in the far future, but don't expect it to be as drastic as DE.

For the most part the revision is well. The decrease of points for the Spearelves is horrible I think. HE now has to pay 4 more points than DE do just for an additional rank of attack. In a unit of 20 that is a save of 80 points between the 2 armies. They cost about the same as Empire soldiers cost. But have much better stats.

I also don't get why they have spears in the first place. They are an offensive army. The only defensive DE army I can think og is City Guard. If I played DE I would still chose Corsairs over spearelves any day, unless I'm strapped for points.

I think it was a bad idea look at tomb kings theve got alot of stuff that they could have
Actual heavy cavalry for example or Maybe the option for heavy armour, only heavy armour we can take is armour of ages, including characters

They are out in box sets. You get 10 for, I think $30.

If they're $6 for a blister of two, then you get the box for $30. Notice how there's no discount from buying the same number in blisters. I think what he meant was when the come out as *plastic*, they'll be more common.