Title: Dark Elf Analysis
Vriishnak the Twisted - December 19, 2003 09:15 PM (GMT)
In the same way that Maelduin ab Sardis has analyzed the basics of the High Elf army, I'll be using this topic to post my views and ideas as to the uses of the various Dark Elf units, but it won't all be happening at once.
I'll try to structure this along the same lines as his, in the hopes of keeping it easy to follow. Feel free to disagree, but as I always ask, justify anything you say.
Introduction
The Dark Elf army is toted as being one for experienced generals over beginners, and I think that it's a very accurate statement. To begin with, I'll list the strengths of the list, as I see it.
1)Movement. The Dark Elves have one of the most maneuverable lists in the game, falling short of only a daemonic Slaanesh army, High Elves, and possibly Wood Elves. Dark Riders have M9, and all foot units have 5, so you should be able to expect the charge in most situations.
2)Skill. The lowest WS in the army is 3, on Harpies, and all the infantry is Initiative 5. You can generally depend on attacking first, and rarely, if ever, will hit on worse than 4+. Against less skilled armies, 3+ is more common.
3)Attacks. Few armies will be able to pump out the sheer volume of attacks that Dark Elves are capable of, from Corsairs with 2, Witch Elves with 3, to Assassins, who are capable of having 5. Even in shooting, the standard Repeater Crossbow can fire two shots, and the Reaper Bolt Thrower can fire a volley of 6 shots.
4)Psychology. The list has an abundance of units that are capable of causing Fear or Terror checks on enemy units, including two Terror-causing mounts, Fear-causing Heavy Cavalry, and the rare-slot War Hydra.
Of course, an army with strengths has to have balancing weaknesses, and at first glance it seems that the Dark Elves are really punished in this category.
1)Toughness. Like every other Elven army, all Dark Elves are T3, including characters. Not having Full Plate equivalent armour, Dark Elves are forced to rely on maneuverability and the ability to pick their fights in order to survive, though Sea Dragon Cloaks do help to alleviate this weakness.
2)Strength. Only one infantry unit in the list is capable of hitting at above S4, and that is with the drawbacks of using Great Weapons. High Toughness opponents generally present a fairly large problem to Dark Elves, as do heavily-armoured forces.
3)Reliability. Stupidity plays a large role in this army, as both the Cold One Knights and Chariots suffer from it, as does the only mount capable of giving a character +2 to their Armour Save. This means that there is always a chance that, when you need their powerful attacks the most, they will simply wander forward and do nothing. This makes it hard to create an effective battle plan, and a Dark Elf general must be prepared and able to cope with the unexpected.
Characters
The characters in the Dark Elf army generally share the weaknesses of the rest of the list, without really having the same emphasis on the strengths. Generally the best use for combat characters is to support a unit, while mage-types are best used for the magical power they add.
This section will be divided into two parts; Combat characters and Mage Characters.
Combat Characters
There are four different characters in the Dark Elf army who are designed for the purpose of fighting; The Highborn, Noble, Beastmaster, and Assassin.
Highborn
The Highborn is the only Lord-level fighty character, and he is also the only means of getting your units up to Ld 10.
Defense
In a defensive list, his role is to stand in the middle of your infantry blocks, spreading his leadership and supporting the rest of the army once it gets into combat. This role requires him to be as armoured as possible, with less attention payed to the damage he can deal, as wounds are less important than the Leadership.
The best equipment for this role is probably the Armour of Darkness and Crown of Black Iron, giving him a respectable 2+ Armour and 5+ Ward save, while only costing 185 points. Against normal infantry, he should also be able to add a wound or two to combat resolution.
Offense
In an offensive army, the Highborn's role changes drastically. Instead of increasing the Ld of the army, his purpose is to support the charge by adding wounds, and in some cases riding a Terror causing mount in an attempt to disrupt the enemy lines on his own.
Whether he's on a Black Dragon, Manticore, or Cold One is up to you, and it depends on the strategy you intend to play.
A Black Dragon is potentially capable of taking down ranked units alone, especially if charging from a flank or rear, and the noble on top can cause some carnage of his own, if equipped for the job. Of course, he'll be very weak against cannons, so other fast units to take them down will be a necessity. An army with a dragon, by necessity, revolves around this 500+ point beast, so be sure that both you and your opponent will enjoy such a game.
My preferred equipment for this type of Highborn is the Gauntlet of Power, Blood Armour, Enchanted Shield and a Sea Dragon Cloak, giving him a very respectable 2+ Armour Save, which increases to 1+ against shooting and grows with each wound he deals.
A Manticore needs more support then the Dragon, but it still has a lot of the same uses. Generally a charge by this little beasty needs to be supported, but aside from that the same strategies can be applied to both. A Highborn should be equipped in roughly the same way, though it might be a good idea to invest in a ward save, as his mount isn't as powerful, leading to him being in more danger of ending up on foot. You save almost 100 points by getting a Manticore over a Dragon, which means that the army is less centred around it and more capable of fielding additional threats. As said before, the preference comes down to the individual player.
A Highborn on a Cold One is less tactically versatile than one on the other mounts, but he is also less vulnerable. Placing him inside a unit of Cold One Knights, 7 or 9 being ideal, means that he can't be individually targetted by enemy shooting, and gives him a Look Out Sir! roll if something hits him. As well, this option gives him +2 to his Armour Save, meaning that you need to spend less points to keep him alive. This unit will generally be the linebreaker in your army, and it probably won't need much support, letting you use the rest of your army to wreak havoc on your opponent's weak units. Of course, with this character you have to be prepared for the times that his mount decides to go Stupid, and even with his LD of 10, it will happen sometimes. It might lose you a combat, or even a game sometimes, but most of the time he'll be well worth the points.
Ideally, this character should have Heavy Armour, Shield, and Sea Dragon Cloak, as well as the Gauntlet and either the Crown of Black Iron or Mystic Shield of Light, depending on whether you think your opponent will have a unit capable of surviving the initial charge by the unit and still remain to fight on.
Finally, a Highborn can ride to battle on a Dark Steed, giving him the best possible movement of any non-flying mount option. This is best utilized by putting him into a Dark Rider unit, basically guaranteeing that any unit hit on the flank by them will break. Used in combination with a large COK unit with a battle standard, you can swiftly smash the enemy line. Be careful though, as Dark Riders are quite fragile, and losing too many will render your unit ineffective and waste the points spent on this character.
Noble
The Noble is the standard Hero-level fighter, able to deal some damage on his own, or acting as the general in games of less than 2000 points. He can also be upgraded to carry a Battle Standard, if that will be useful to your army.
Defense
In a defensive list, Nobles are best used as a Battle Standard, as your flank charges should make an extra wound or two irrelevent in major combats. Elven characters' low toughness makes armour a necessity, and the only ways to do this as a Dark Elf player are by not taking a Magical Standard or by being mounted, neither of which is a particularly good option in this list. The best you can do is give him Heavy Armour and a Sea Dragon Cloak and do your best to protect him from being charged, but I think that defensive lists should be magic heavy, so I wouldn't reccomend taking any Nobles at all.
Offense
In an offensive list, the Noble has a few potential uses, assuming the army is magically light; in a heavy-magic army, an additional Sorceress is almost guaranteed to be more useful.
The first use for a Noble is as support to a unit, preferably one that your General isn't in. In a secondary Cold One Knight unit, he can cause additional wounds quite easily, possibly resulting in a broken enemy line at two points. Nobles in Dark Riders can also be quite effective, surprising your opponent and possibly elminating an infantry block with a flank charge. This is always a risk, as focused shooting will yield a large boon of Victory Points, but it is a fairly powerful unit, with the idea being that the noble should be equipped to add some casualties to the Dark Rider charge, whether through use of a lance, or the Blade of Ruin against cavalry-heavy armies. Protective items shouldn't be your primary concern, as you should be protecting this unit as much as possible anyway, and if he's being hit by things, you probably did something wrong.
I generally recommend against Nobles on foot, as they become unable to achieve a good enough Armour Save to protect them
The second, and probably best use, is as a Battle Standard in a hard-hitting unit, probably Cold One Knights, but preferably a different unit from your General. The Hydra Banner will generally result in a broken enemy unit, and for the cost of two units and two characters, all of which should easily survive, the enemy line will be shattered. Of course, if there are enemy units that you don't think your Highborn unit, or even your BSB unit, can handle, it's sometimes best to put both characters into one for a nearly guaranteed victory in combat. It's better to have one destroyed enemy unit than two of your heavy cav stuck in a combat they can't win.
Finally, if mounted on a Dark Pegasus, a Noble can fly around the battlefield hunting enemy mages or taking care of warmachines and skirmishers. Also, if equipped with the Web Of Shadows, he could potentially deal some real damage to even weaker fighty characters, particularly elves. Just remember that, regardless of how you have him equipped, you should be avoiding any combat that will last more than one round, as this character's usefullness comes from his mobility.
Assassins
For a Hero-level character, the Assassin is quite powerful. Manbane poison can reduce high-Toughness enemies from a giant pain to an easy kill, and there are many ways to set one up to kill hero-level characters with relative ease, but at the same base cost as your Highborn, he simply isn't efficient. The only real use I can see for one is with the Blade of Ruin, but if I fails to kill the enemy in the first round of attacks, he's a free 175 Victory Points for your opponent. I would personally rarely take an Assassin, and never in two games in a row.
Beastmasters
On his own, a Beastmaster is a very weak character. Two attacks and WS4 means that even the weakest of enemies will be able to hold him off for a long time, and only having 25 points of magic means that he isn't able to get much better.
However, all of this misses the point of a Beastmaster. His ability to reroll Monster Reaction Tests is probably worth the 40 points he costs on its own if you use a couple of big beasties, and the ability to ride a Dark Pegasus, for potential character hunting, or a Manticore, where Terror and the threat of a devastating flank charge make him potentially useful in both offensive and defensive roles.
He won't be winning many combats on his own, however, so make sure that he supported by something else charging any ranked units that he chooses to target. His equipment should be based entirely on the role you expect him to fulfill, but you'll rarely go wrong with a Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, and the Blood Armour.
Mage Characters
The Dark Elf army is one renowned for its magical prowess, and this is captured in the rules by access to a unique lore and an always-in-effect +1 to casting rolls made by Dark Elven mages.
However, those capable of wielding this awesome power are rare, and don't come cheap in an army, leaving me to recommend an all-or-nothing style of approach to the magic selection in your army. Either go magic-heavy, which is what I'm assuming in my discussion of the characters to follow, or magic-light, which means either no wizards at all-which is generally too risky to be worthwhile, especially in an army as expensive as this one-or a single, level 1 scroll caddy.
High Sorceress
The High Sorceress is your bread and butter if you're playing magic heavy, the only caster you can depend on to be able to roll enough dice to cast Black Horror, the most effective spell in the Dark Magic list. The upgrade to level 4 is mandatory after investing so many points in this character, as is a full complement of magical items.
The Tome of Furion and Crown of Black Iron are both quite useful to this character regardless of mount, as protection is a necessity and you want to maximize your chances of rolling Black Horror. As an added bonus, if you have a regualr High Elf opponent, your best caster will be immune to the effects of Drain Magic.
The Darkstar Cloak can also be useful, giving her more dice to put into the casting of her important spells without the risks associated with the single-use Power Stones.
Personally, I think the best way to field her is mounted on a Dark Pegasus, in order to get maximum utility and effectiveness from her largely short-ranged spells. This also sets her up to do some hunting of enemy mages on her own, meaning that the Lifetaker is quite often a safe purchase.
Remember that she's not going to survive a lot of shooting regardless of how good her Ward Save is and you should do fine; keep her out of targetting range whenever possible, and use Soul Stealer to give her a few extra wounds, and you should be well satisfied by the blood she spills for the cause of Khaine and Malekith.
A High Sorceress can be used well in both offensive and defensive roles, though the short range of the Dark Lore makes it difficult for her to truly make an impact when the enemy is moving forward; I'd suggest that magic-heavy is a style more suited to an offensive list than defensive.
Sorceress
While the +1 to cast makes these girls more likely to cast the difficult spells than equivalent casters from other races, it's still better to depend on the High Sorceress to get that particular job done whenever possible.
The Black Staff can be useful if you want a second caster capable of getting off the Horror, but it's not usually a good idea when she'll only have a 1/3 chance of having the spell in any particular game. Also, most of your dice should be going to the High Sorceress, as she has the best chance of being in the position to inflict the maximum damage.
Depending on the setup of your opponents' armies, items like Dispel Scrolls or even the Crystal of Midnight could potentially be worthwhile, but you should be able to depend on your Dispel Dice and mage-hunting capabilities to protect you against all but the heaviest onslaughts. Aside from that, Power Stones might be useful, but the points are probably better spent on a steed and the rest of your army.
In a magic-heavy army, I'd generally recommend taking your High Sorceress along with 2 normal Sorceresses to provide dice for her casting. Any more than that and you're likely to have dice that you can't use in any given magic phase, and less will result in less-than-total control, which you can't afford after having put this many points into your offense. This should leave you with 1100-1200 points to build the rest of your army, which will leave you outnumbered, but with the potential of your magic being able to whittle away enough at the enemy to bring you equal.
Core Units
The core selections that you make should fill out the bulk of your army, however it is that you decide to design your army. The selections you make should be quite different for an offensive army compared to a defensive one, and as always this should be used as a guide rather than a set of hard rules.
Now on to the options.
Warriors with Spears
These boys are the cheapest elven infantry available to any army, and have the standard advantages of high WS and I, and come equipped with a Spear and Light Armour.
As far as I'm concerned, regardless of how cheap they are, SpearElves only fit into a defensively oriented army, as you're otherwise paying points for a spear you aren't going to use. I've heard people suggest using units of 10 unequipped to draw out foolish charges or delay units for a turn, but 7 points each isn't cheap enough to justify throwing them away in my mind.
If you decide to use them, they should be taken in a unit of at least 16 and preferably 20, equipped with a shield and full command. Anything above 20 is just a waste of points as far as I can see, as there's not chance of them hitting combat, and it just makes it harder for the unit to maneuver.
Even in a defensive army, however, I don't really see the point of taking these units. A spear is a weapon best suited to use on the receiving end of a charge, and that's something you never want to happen in any Dark Elf army; T3 and a 5+ save isn't enough to survive the attacks that get to go before you.
Cheap plastics and point costs mean that these Warriors show up in many lists, but I have yet to hear a good reason that they've been selected over Corsairs or other, more elite infantry. Units whose strengths are nullified by the equipment they carry are rarely worth getting, especially in the large numbers required to stand up to other, cheaper infantry from other armies.
Warriors with Repeater Crossbows
These elves are a better fit with the army as I invision it, being able to pelt the enemy from a distance with large numbers of shots, then being able to rank up into units that actually survive better than their brethren with spears.
They can also fit into both offensive or defensive lists, making them infinitely more versatile than the the other core infantry options.
Offensive In an offensive list, these Warriors are best suited to advancing on the flank with the rest of the army, while laying down a covering fire to eliminate any fast cav or skirmishers that may try to threaten the advancing elves. Once the major threats are gone, they can form into an infantry regiment of their own, and support the other units with charges to provide ranks and outnumber.
For this use, I'd suggest a unit of 16, initially deployed in an 8x2 formation, switching to 4x4 once the time for combat comes. A shield is a good investment, and if the majority of the army is cav or monsters, full command is a good idea as well; in a more infantry-based list, the banners can be provided by units that are solely geared towards fighting.
Make sure that you pick your targets carefully; try to eliminate threats to the army as a whole, rather than attempting to defend a single unit. You may find that this unit is a useful sacrifice to aid the rest of the force, and as long as the gain is large enough, there's no reason not to let them die.
Defensive In a defensive role, there are two potential uses for an RXB unit. The first is as supporting fire to eliminate enemy fast cav or scouts that are trying to threaten your firing base; a unit of 10 can fire off a 20-shot volley that will leave most of these units too weak to accomplish their objective. This option is best suited to minimum-sized units with no upgrades whatsoever; once they've done this, they're only useful for an attempt to hold a table quarter at the end of the game, and as 110 VP that are very difficult for your opponent to claim.
The second use is very similar to that of an offensive unit, in that they join the ranked infantry units, or act as the only ones. Again, units of 16 with command and shield are best for this duty, as they shoot at approaching enemies, then form up and hold the charge so your cav and chariots can hit the flank. In these units, your shooting is intended less to inflict real damage than to force your opponent to keep moving with less concern for the flankers, as they should be losing at least a couple of models each turn. If you get the chance, though, try to eliminate disruptive units, or those that could threaten your plan.
Corsairs
These are just about the opposite of Spear Warriors in terms of purpose and use; they do best on the charge, where they can make full use of their massive number of attacks without having to worry about the fact that each loss results in two lost attacks for the unit. This means that in a defensive army, they will most likely not be worth the points, as you will be unable to guarantee them the charge, while they will often very much outperform expectations if used well on offence.
The presence of a Sea Dragon Cloak also makes them better against enemy shooting, and if you're advancing at full speed you should be able to avoid most casualties against all but the most determined foe.
If you line them up to attack a low-toughness or -armoured foe, you can expect a massive CR in your favour, but don't let them get sucked into combat against knights and the like, where they will accomplish nothing.
Corsairs can also make an excellent support unit for a charge by heavy-hitters, as they give you the ranks to take on opposing infantry combined with 11 attacks from the front rank.
Dark Riders
Dark Riders are, in my opinion, the most useful Core unit in the Dark Elf list. Ignore, for now, the fact that they're Fast Cavalry, and acknowledge that they're M9, WS4 units with a S4 charge and the potential to carry Repeater Crossbows. Adding in the special rules makes them incredibly versatile, basically giving them a guaranteed flank charge against enemy infantry and allowing them to bait enemy units with impunity. They can be used to hunt lone enemy characters if given crossbows, and can be used to charge enemy units where they try to hide, directing three attacks at them, enough to threaten - if not kill outright - weak enemy characters, and if they lose combat they'll most likely outdistance persuit.
They can march block units, hunt war machines, and generally act as a nuisance against any enemy, and have the maneuverability to potentially survive the process. They are also able to claim or contest table quarters at the end of the game, moving from one to the other quite quickly.
In deployment, you can use your (relatively) cheap DR units to delay the placement of your important units while making the enemy deploy, letting you react to their decisions rather than the other way around. Adding a Noble to a unit makes them sufficiently powerful to destroy enemy infantry if they make a flank charge, and increases their ability to assassinate enemy characters.
Dark Rider units always, always want a musician; one of their primary purposes is to bait the enemy into bad charges, and the +1 to rally after you flee is very useful. I wouldn't recommend fielding a unit without it.
On the other hand, a champion is almost entirely worthless. If you're using the unit without an rbt, the 14 points are entirely wasted, while a shooting unit only benefits from a +1 to hit on two shots, which remain S3. I'd do without it, as those points can get you an extra infantry model, without any significant loss in power to the DR.
Standards are entirely based upon use. If you're using them to hunt war machines or weak units, and you feel confident that they won't be getting into a hopeless combat, it can be very helpful. Of course, it also gives more incentive to your opponent to hunt them down.
Basically, it's up to you which command models you want, based on the role you envision for the unit.
As far as I'm concerned, these guys have a role in any army, and as long as they're used right will always contribute to the overall plan. A discussion of how to use them in defensive lists as opposed to offensive is unnecessary, as they are best used for the same purposes in both.
Special Units
Where the Core Units are the ones that make up the backbone of your army, Specials are those that either fill tactical weaknesses in the army, or open up new routes to victory, or that's how it is in most lists. In the Dark Elf list, however, they generally have the same general uses as those available in core, with either a slightly different focus or a more extreme strength and weakness. I'll start with my thoughts on the infantry available.
Executioners
These are the hardest hitting infantry available to the Druchii, with an impressive comination of WS and S5 to their attacks, as well as the Killing Blow special rule. The heavy armour granted to them in the new revision increases their survivability slightly, but the fact that they're T3 troops with only a 5+ save remains, and very much limits their usefulness as a main-line infantry unit.
Used as a flanking unit, Executioners can add some casualties to a combat, but if the enemy manages to get them one-on-one, they're almost guaranteed to lose and probably die. With enough fast support in the army, or in an MSU-style list they can be useful, but they aren't a unit that I'd take defensively or in a primarily cav army.
Shades
Scouts, skirmishers, repeater crossbows. Use them to harass the enemy, to march block, take out warmachines, and generally to be a nuisance. Use the scouting ability to set up in a place where the enemy can't easily get to you and shoot away. Of course, they aren't going to be doing much in combat, so try to avoid getting them stuck in without good reason. Delaying a powerful unit, redirecting Frenzied opponents with a well timed rear charge, or charging enemy shooters, even if all you do is prevent them from firing for a turn or two, are all good reasons to get them into combat.
In an offensive list, they can be used to weaken a unit before you charge with another unit, to lure away part of the enemy line, or even as a threat to make them worry about more than your advance.
Defensively, their best use is march blocking, giving you and extra turn or two of shooting before combat is reached, as well as adding their own fire.
Aside from that, use them to pick on weak units, as S3 fire isn't going to do much to elite infantry, and don't expect them to significantly affect the course of the game. They're definitely worth the points, but only as long as you use them as they were intended.
Witch Elves
With 3 WS5 poisoned attacks each, these ladies are just short of a blender against most other infantry. Their defenses are weak, and they can be manipulated with their frenzy, but if you're careful with them they can be an amazing unit. As long as you don't send them up against units with good armour, you shouldn't be disappointed.
Offensively, they can be used as a mainline combat unit, though it's best to screen them until they get stuck in; they should have next to no trouble beating most other infantry, but if they're shot or dragged off on the way there, you won't be too happy with them. In an MSU list they do really well on a flank - I got 31 attacks from mine in the second round of a combat, once.
Defensively they probably aren't a good choice, as they're easy to take out of the game in a fair number of ways, and if you're staying back you probably can't move as well to protect them. Leave them at home in favour of something more useful.
Harpies
Flyers are generally a good choice, having many capabilities that slower ground troups don't. Hunting war machines, lone characters, and march blocking are all good uses for them, but even more so than a lot of other flying units, you want to keep them away from anything resembling a ranked unit, or anything else that could cause a panic test. Ld6 is a major weakness, and with only T3 most shooting should be able to take down at least a couple; either take big units to prevent panic, or keep them out of targetting range.
They do basically the same thing offensively as they do defensively, though their march blocking is more useful when you have enough shooting to capitalize on it.
Cold One Chariots
S and T5, scythed wheels, Fear, and a 2 for 1 special slot make them seem good at first glance, but stupidity just makes them too unreliable for me to seriously consider using them. Not to say that they can't be useful, especially with a character mounted in them for the all-important US5, but more than anything chariots need the charge, and going stupid could easily get them to be forced to take one.
If you are going to use them, supporting infantry units is probably the best place for them. The ranks and standard combined with the wounds dealt by the chariot should be enough to break the enemy, even more so if you've got a character riding around in it. In an offensive list you could probably get away with using two to take on units, or even one with a Hydra; just remember that they could have a bad round or fail stupidity, and you'll lose a lot of VP if you were depending on them to win the combat.
Cold One Knights
Relatively powerful, tough, and fear-causing are almost enough to balance out stupidity. Almost. It wouldn't be so bad if it was on units who didn't need to get the charge in order to win, but on the only heavy cav and chariot choices in the list, it's painful. Sure, in most games they'll do very well, exactly as you'd expect from their stats and equipment, but sometimes they'll just decline to charge into that important combat, and stagger forward instead; it happened to Xris a lot when he was using his DE against me, and I'm not willing to depend on something so unreliable.
They have the same uses as any heavy cav, and combined with a character or BSB can be a killer unit. I don't think I need to discuss their strengths, as they're quite obvious, but I hope that everyone acknowledges their potential weaknesses as well.
Rare Units
Black Guard
Eternal Hatred and Stubborn sound like the beginnings of a truly hard elite infantry unit. Then you realise that they're still elves, and have T3 and only a 5+ save for 16 points. Sure, they're probably going to strike first in protracted combats, and they'll more reliably cause wounds than any of the other infantry barring Witch Elves, but they'll also take a large number, and it's hard to make back the points you've put into them.
They can also be used to take a charge and hold an opposing unit up for a turn or two, ideally to set up a good flank charge against them, but the number of casualties they'll take will be horrific, and they probably won't be able to do it more than once per game. I've heard people swear by a unit of 12 to give them extra time, but in my mind they just don't fit into an army of precision and speed; I'd rather take more Dark Riders and simply flank charge the unit to pin it in place.
Cauldron of Blood
I don't believe I've ever heard of an army using it, and with good reason. The fact that it affects a 24" radius is meaningless when you can't move it; if you've out the points into this you're almost guaranteed to be playing an infantry-based combat army, one which lacks the shooting to force your opponent to come to you. Thus, the game will play out either with them holding back and shooting until you're out of its effect, or they'll move in while making sure to minimize its effect, likely by tying up your S3 units with knights.
In a defensive army it could be useful, if you somehow had an extra 205 points lying around and nothing better (2 RBT's, perhaps?) to spend them on. Really, though, I don't understand why anyone would take the Cauldron over some of the more effective units in the list.l
very nooby man - December 29, 2003 10:20 AM (GMT)
thank you, thank you, thank you. Ah, finally a dark elf guide. before, i was wanting to ask for one and now, there is one. thank you, thank you, thank you again.
BTW now, my highborn is on cold one, have mystic shield of light, gaulet of power, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak and shield. is that good?
Balder The Great - December 29, 2003 05:46 PM (GMT)
thank u my friend whas very happy when he read this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vriishnak the Twisted - December 30, 2003 03:26 AM (GMT)
Yeah, that Highborn is pretty much exactly what I would take to lead a unit of Cold One Knights.
Also, there's more to come, so save your thanks til I'm done. ;)
Maelduin ab Sardis - December 30, 2003 11:41 AM (GMT)
Maybe you should mention in the mounts part that a cold one suffers from stupidity. Pretty nice though, keep up the good work :)
Vriishnak the Twisted - December 30, 2003 04:46 PM (GMT)
Right, good idea. Thanks.
Drizzt - January 1, 2004 07:34 PM (GMT)
what does the mystic shield of light and the gauntlet of power do? are they in the campaogn book? i would like to know please because i might change my list to add them.
Thanks. ^_^
very nooby man - January 2, 2004 12:25 AM (GMT)
its not in the book but in the high elves section in the GW website. go to high elves then click on Albanion summary then u will find it. you are allowed to use these items in any battle.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 3, 2004 11:49 PM (GMT)
I can't believe I forgot Beastmasters. :rolleyes:
So that's in now, as is another use for Nobles that I conveniently ignored. Next up is the magic users.
RasputinII - January 4, 2004 11:43 AM (GMT)
Cheers, thats was a good read, although I knew most of it before.
One thing I mus point out is that the Hydra banner weilding noble should join a COK unit with a high born if facing such armies like Chaos all cav army - especially slaanesh or even a heavy saurii army.
Before I lost my army thats what I had, and the unit was unstopable, smashing through anything and eveything. It also makes the unit practically imune to Stupidity, with LD10 re rolling. But if you field a second uit of COK's then dont do this as the other unit may be liable to going stupid.
Lastly, Vriishnak, what would you equip a noble riding a dark steed with if he was going in a unit of Dark Riders. I guess a repeater X bow. But what magic items and what over all effect would you be looking to acheive? A Lance? A ward save? A hgigh armour save? Anti magic (Unlikely)?
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 4, 2004 06:11 PM (GMT)
A couple small additions, both thanks to you, Rasputin.
Lord Ramzes III - January 8, 2004 04:54 PM (GMT)
Thanks to al of men hwo prepare it. It is very good tactic, and for me (I'm begining collecting DE) it'svery important.
Corsair - January 9, 2004 08:09 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| what would you equip a noble riding a dark steed with if he was going in a unit of Dark Riders. I guess a repeater X bow |
Ever think about the Lifetaker? 30 point repeater that hits on 2+ and re-roll to wound. Combine this with Blood Armor (20) and every wound you do, your save increases to max 1+. Combine a Sea Dragon Cloak and you start with a 3+ in close combat and a 2+ for ranged attacks. That is the only thing I can think of if you are combining a unit of Dark Riders....
Vrishnak - Noble with Crimson Death, Heavy Armor, SDC, Shield, Cold One Mount and Talisman of Protection...
1+ close combat save, 1+ ranged attack save; in case of strength mods, 6+ Ward save (almost useless); and ALWAYS strike with S6. Good combo?
RasputinII - January 9, 2004 08:26 PM (GMT)
Mine has the enchanted sheild and the crown of black iron as well as SDC, HA, lance and dark steed.
But then I have to spend that much on his save because he is my gebneral in 2000pts. :D
Corsair - January 9, 2004 09:07 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
Mine has the enchanted sheild and the crown of black iron as well as SDC, HA, lance and dark steed.
But then I have to spend that much on his save because he is my gebneral in 2000pts |
True, but you still have only a 2+ save and a 5+ ward save. Tell me, what good does a Lance do for your general?
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 9, 2004 10:26 PM (GMT)
Crimson Death counts as halberd, so can't be combined with a shield. Aside from that it's a decent combo, but I generally wouldn't bother with the Talisman, as a 6+ ward is rarely going to save you from anything.
The Lifetaker is decent, assuming you're only targetting skirmishers and fast cav. It's a decent combo to get a good armour save, but against some armies it's not going to accomplish much. Also, that's your full 50 points, meaning that unless the skirmishers and such are a primary concern, I wouldn't spend a hero slot on him.
Xris - January 9, 2004 10:43 PM (GMT)
The lifetaker is good as a character hunter weapon as long as the enemies don't keep them in units. If your opponents characters are in units its pretty useless.
The crimson death is a very good weapon for a character on foot, waste of points for mounted ones, a lance does the same things and if you didn't break the unit on the charge you're already in trouble.
RasputinII - January 10, 2004 10:30 AM (GMT)
It is a 1+ save, and the lance makes him S6 on the charge, doesn't eat into his magic items and allows him to use a sheild, or in my case th enchanted sheild.
He is there to survive. And survive he will. :D
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 12, 2004 11:30 PM (GMT)
The section on mages has now been added. Next will be core units.
Xris - January 13, 2004 12:44 AM (GMT)
Rasputin you've got a good point if you have a noble/highborne on a cold one then they do not need magic armour as they can get a good save without it. I use the magic armour for characters like my beastmaster on manticore.
Rogue-Gladiator - January 21, 2004 03:34 AM (GMT)
I was trying to think of a generally powerful Dark Elf Highborn to lead an Army I'm forming. I was thinking of the following:
Dark Elf Highborn with Crimson Death (for strong hits), Blood Armor (to get a good armor save), Crown of Black Iron (for some ward save and Light magic protection) Sea Dragon Cloak (why not, gives some initial protection).
Basically, since this is a costly unit, I'm trying to protect him, while at the same time making him powerful. I'm considering a mount, though I'm not positive what it will be yet. I want a mount that will be able to quickly get him across the battlefield. The cheapest would be a Dark Steed, the more expensive version would be a dark Pegasus, and a really expensive version would be a manticore (as it can fly and therefore hero hunt fairly well, especially mage hunt against mages who use light magics). If you can think of a better variant of the highborn that will have an equal level of offense and defense (I know everybody raves about the GoP and such). If you need my Army, I'll post that up, but I think you get the general idea what I'm looking for here- a powerful general who can both benefit his troops (leadership), and fight on the front fields of battle.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 21, 2004 03:54 AM (GMT)
Mount him on a Cold One and give him the GoP, it's that simple. He's fast enough to be at the front doing the fighting, he stays close enough to give his Ld, he gets the best possible initial save, and he isn't stuck spending all those points for a strike-in-initiative great weapon. The Gauntlet is just better in so many ways, and I don't really recommend the Blood Armour, either. Why spend the magic points when you can get the Enchanted Shield and start with a 1+?
Xris - January 21, 2004 04:04 AM (GMT)
Also what you might to is mount him cold one, heavy armour, SDC, shield there is your armour save. Lance might be better than the GoP because with the knights you have to break the enemy on the charge, i've they didn't run there is a serious problem (like when i charged a stubborn unit) The lance is also much cheaper. The GoP is by far the best magic weapon in the list, followed by Blade of Ruin.
Rogue-Gladiator - January 21, 2004 04:20 AM (GMT)
I just thought the blood armor looked pretty nice- only 20 points, and for each wound I make, I increase my save by one. It just looks good to me. But just to make sure i'm getting this correctly, you're saying that with Normal Heavy Armor, an Enchanted Shield, and a Sea Dragon cloak, and being mounted on a cold one will give me a good Save (yes, I'm new to warhammer in general, and though I've heard Dark Elves are a hard race to start with, they're just too cool to pass up)?
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 21, 2004 12:25 PM (GMT)
Dark Elves are a hard army to start with, but it's not impossible as long as you're willing to accept that you're probably going to do quite badly for a while. It'll also seem a lot more rewarding once you start beating the other, more conventional armies regularly.
Equipping a Highborn with Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, and mounting him on a Cold One gives him a 1+ armour save, and only 10 points gone from his magic item allowance, as well. The lance is almost as good as the GoP for one turn, depending on what you're fighting, and it lets you have more models, so could be better for you to start with.
If you start a new topic with your amy list, we'd be happy to look over it and give you some pointers.
RasputinII - January 21, 2004 09:31 PM (GMT)
Here is my HB, he has different equipment for each of the armies I will be playing.
Against Brets and in my Tournie list: DS, GoP, Sheild, CoBI, HA, SDC
Against Strigies: DS, Venom Sword, Lance, HA, Enchanted shield, ToP, SDC
Against Skaven: DS, Hydra blade, HA, SDC, CoPI
With all he is mounted on a DS for movement and in all he has a good save and a ward save. But the weapon is very rliant on the oponent.
RasputinII - January 21, 2004 09:34 PM (GMT)
Vriishnak: You forgot with the high sorceress to mention the fact the the CoBI protects against drain magic. I just thought you might wish to add that.
P.S. HS on manticore, the very controversial idea that si lovd by many.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 21, 2004 09:58 PM (GMT)
Good call; I'd forgotten about that little bonus. B)
Xris - January 21, 2004 11:51 PM (GMT)
Isn't it a 0+ with the enchanted shield? 5+ for heavy armour, 4+ SDC, 2+ CO, 0+ enchanted shield, -1+ against shooting. Now not that a those low saves have much of an effect except against higher strength attacks.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 22, 2004 12:29 AM (GMT)
Heh, so it is. I'd forgotten about the SDC. ;)
Corsair - January 22, 2004 01:59 PM (GMT)
1 always fails. isnt that true? so if you can never have a save better than a 1+, what is the point to adding the enchanted shield?
King Ulrik Flamebeard - January 22, 2004 02:14 PM (GMT)
The point is so that he is basically immune to S4 or below attacks, he will always get his save of 0+ or 1+. Also it should keep him relativly safe against high S attacks, he would need to be wounded by S6+ to really make you worry about failing his save badly.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 24, 2004 07:56 PM (GMT)
Exactly; once your save is modified by high strength, the extra point comes in quite handy.
Note: All core except Dark Riders have been added now, and I'll continue on when I have the time. Enjoy, and feel free to comment.
Naked Mat - January 28, 2004 01:34 PM (GMT)
One point about saves: YOU CAN NEVER GO BEYOND 1+ ! Read the rulebook. You always start deducting from 1+, whatever you loaded your fig with. Simply stop at 1+, there's no point in going beyond. There doesn't exist something like a 0+ or negative save. :rolleyes:
| QUOTE (Rogue-Gladiator @ Jan 20 2004, 10:34 PM) |
I was trying to think of a generally powerful Dark Elf Highborn to lead an Army I'm forming. I was thinking of the following:
Dark Elf Highborn with Crimson Death (for strong hits), Blood Armor (to get a good armor save), Crown of Black Iron (for some ward save and Light magic protection) Sea Dragon Cloak (why not, gives some initial protection).
Basically, since this is a costly unit, I'm trying to protect him, while at the same time making him powerful. I'm considering a mount, though I'm not positive what it will be yet. I want a mount that will be able to quickly get him across the battlefield. The cheapest would be a Dark Steed, the more expensive version would be a dark Pegasus, and a really expensive version would be a manticore (as it can fly and therefore hero hunt fairly well, especially mage hunt against mages who use light magics). If you can think of a better variant of the highborn that will have an equal level of offense and defense (I know everybody raves about the GoP and such). If you need my Army, I'll post that up, but I think you get the general idea what I'm looking for here- a powerful general who can both benefit his troops (leadership), and fight on the front fields of battle. |
Here's an idea: Since knights now have Ld 9 they don't really need to be led (give them a champion and magic banner and support them with a chariot for extra damage or dark riders to remove rank bonus).
That saves place for your lord riding a unique mount that was unavailable before: a chariot! Give him crimson death for great offense and the ring of darkness for defense. It's really a great item; even if you don't succeed to cast it, it will eat an enemy dispell attempt every round. Add heavy armour and a dragon cloak and you have a decent 4+/3+ save plus protection from the chariot itself, and possibly being hit on 6 in combat. After you mauled through with the chariot there won't be much left anyway.
You could even take blood armour and a shield, and if you really don't like the ring, there's armour of darkness. I'd stay away from those 5+ wards, they generally don't do anything but eat up lots of points.
Mounting your hero/lord in a chariot has the extra benefit of making the chariot US5 and charging in flanks, plus it makes the chariot more reliable (->stupidity).
I'd use the blackguard champion for the model; looks really cool. B)
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 28, 2004 05:21 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| YOU CAN NEVER GO BEYOND 1+ ! Read the rulebook. |
I'd recommend the same to you; page 64, second column, under Maximum Save. "Magic armour is one way to improve the wearer's armour save to 1+ or even less!" Read that whole topic and I think you'll understand.
| QUOTE |
| Since knights now have Ld 9 they don't really need to be led |
No, but the extra power a character adds can make them much more powerful.
| QUOTE |
| your lord riding a...chariot! |
I commented on your equipment selection in your other topic, so I'll say here that I don't really like the idea. It makes you even more vulnerable to attacks above S7, and it makes you unable to march. I'd keep him in the Cold Ones.
| QUOTE |
| I'd stay away from those 5+ wards, |
You've got to be kidding. Not only does it prevent 1/3 of wounds, keeping you Highborn alive through at least one more successful wound, but it gives you a chance of surviving Killing Blow, or anything that doesn't allow armour. Do you really want the chance of your T3 general being unprotected against anything?
Naked Mat - January 28, 2004 08:01 PM (GMT)
Like in the other topic, I clarified my point about wards being "unreliable". What I meant is that wards are always 5+/6+ or best 4+ (at a steep price). Having one chance in three won't stop many blows.
| QUOTE |
Do you really want the chance of your T3 general being unprotected against anything?
|
:) He's not. Remember: offense is the best defense? It's true, if you charge (or strike first with high init) you'll probably wipe everyone in base contact out, esp. when accompaigned by damaged caused by a rampaging chariot. With noone kept alive to strike back, you'll be safe. ;)
Aside that, you have the ring that will keep you safe in combat and if it doesn't go off, you have still blood armour which will soon add a big boost (remember those wounds you just caused?). I donno, a 2+ save vs shooting (cloak+shield+heavy arm) plus the chariot soaking most missile hits is enough protection, isn't it.
You should keep a chariot or knights away from cannons anyway!
Try it and you'll see.
Vriishnak the Twisted - January 28, 2004 09:29 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| Having one chance in three won't stop many blows. |
By my math, it stops one of every three. That means that you've effectively got another wound on your character with average luck, plus it could do better.
| QUOTE |
| offense is the best defense |
Until you roll a 1 for impact hits, or go up against someone with a real defense. You seem to be vastly overestimating the effects of S5 and 6 hits, especially if they add a character into the unit you decide to charge.
| QUOTE |
| Try it and you'll see. |
I think I'll stick with my GoP-armed Highborn, thanks.
Naked Mat - January 29, 2004 11:28 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| Until you roll a 1 for impact hits, or go up against someone with a real defense. You seem to be vastly overestimating the effects of S5 and 6 hits, especially if they add a character into the unit you decide to charge. |
<_< Tell me what single piece that's two models wide (in base contact with only 3 models) can do more than D6+1 auto S5 hits plus 4S6 hits (at WS7 & I8) and 3S4 hits, and causes fear with a 14" harge range... Not talking 'bout special characters of course. If you mention a dragon, he'll cost twice as much. If you charge in the flanks, which is very probable, you won't face any characters.
| QUOTE |
| Until you roll a 1 for impact hits, |
You could just as well roll 1s on wards.
| QUOTE |
| I think I'll stick with my GoP-armed Highborn, thanks. |
Everyone his way.
PS: If you wanna take this further, let's continue the discussion in the other DE topic instead of posting things twice.
Swedishviking - January 29, 2004 03:31 PM (GMT)
GAAAAAAAAAAH! How do you count 3 models? If it ATLEAST 5-6 models you've got to kill. Sure, you might do it against normal human infantry. Have you ever played someone with either: Ironbreakers, Chaos Warriors or BEASTHERD. Try flanking those. Plus, you might aswell face a character. I always put mine out on one flank of the unit, plus that a lot of people have mounted characters, giving them the charge instead of you. Or have you faced executioners or wights? If you do, you'll probably wish that you bought a ward save.
Or the flying monster?
Or, even worse, have you faced a saurus lord with Charm of the Jaguar warrior and great weapon?
And if facing dwarves/empire, and then fail a Ld-test, going stupid. That'll be a prime target for cannons.
Naked Mat - January 29, 2004 07:14 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| Plus, you might aswell face a character. I always put mine out on one flank of the unit |
Characters must be placed in the front row! I think you've been using them incorrectly.
Like I said, you have two options to field the general: defensively or offensively. Everyone his way, period.