How long did we hold the castle? Did we win?

well unofficaly we were told 59 minutes 30 seconds. But I just read a PBnation post that says we fell in a record time of 45 minutes (if thats true we will never live it down..already I am getting crap from my college club who bash on me for playing pump). We were outnumbered 4.8 to 1 and they posted on our respawen sites so it was incredibly hard to get more then 10 feet without getting eliminated again.

We sat around afterwards and some of us came to agree that had they let us respan outside the castle were it would be 1- a little safer and 2- we could attack the outside attackers.. the game would have lasted longer.

It was very intense... it was really nice to see a big gathering of pumpers, and I am VERY thankfull to all the sponsers.. but I am heartbroken that all the reffled pumps went to semi players :(

I don't think that senario is really my thing. I liked meeting everyone from SCP and others that I see online like Punisher and BigMatt.

In the future though I think it should be closer to 1on3 odds in favor of attakers... or have a pump attack game.

anyone who wants to trash talk at pbnation can grow a pair and step up like we did who defended that castle with pumps.

otherwise they are all nothing more than a bunch of useless noise.

Just my $0.02

and the last I heard was 59.5mins . . . the 45min rumor was started almost immediately by the attackers, I kept hearing it from random people in the second game.

That was the official time I got from Blue, so I'll take that as correct over something rumored at nation.

I'll re-post here what I put on PPIG and Tinkers Guild for clarification.

Turns out that we had a large "No-Show" percentage of defenders, which was not compensated for. So there was a turnout of somewhere around 650 people, with 100 defenders tops. This gives us odds of somewhere around 5.5 to 1.

So another development was that the attacking General was trying for a total surrender, rather than the normal "Capture the objectives" win. The attackers had actually gotten possession of all of the objectives within 45 minutes, but tried to taunt us into surrendering rather than just take them to the proper place to get the win.

As a result of the showoff delay by the attackers, the defense lasted for 59:30. They had been trying to break the existing attacking record of 58:00, but by trying to show-off it cost them their chance. They keep talking about the 45 minutes, because that is when they got ahold of the last objective, and won't admit that their hot-dogging cost them big.

-Hans

5.5:1 odds . . . hehehehe, a target rich environment!

Pub Crawling were worthy opponents . . . but frankly if they were showboating then too bad . . . just sounds like an excuse to me. Just like the running back in football who starts waving the ball around before making the end zone and gets it swatted out of his hands, almost and what ifs do not count.

In the end, we had the cajones to stand there and do it

:evil:

And I will repost what I put on Doc's Forum:

Oh what a spin people put on things. Here are some facts.

Fact: We were not trying to beat the record at all. It was said so in the opening speech. That was NEVER the goal.

Fact: We had no intention of turning the last prop in at all.

Fact: We wanted you to surrender or for it to go all 5 hours.

Fact: We have confirmed control of wall #4 (the one facing purple circle) before the defenders had their first reinsertion at the 10 min. mark.

Fact: After two failed insertions by the defenders at the 40 min. and 50 min. mark the refs said they were either going to call the game or we could end it. Because at the 60 min. mark we would be at full force and were putting relentless amounts of paint through every opening.

Fact: We had all of the objectives at an un-official time of 40 minutes and an official time of 45 minutes (took 5 minutes to double check that we had everything and get an official time check).

Fact: It is merely coincidence that the last prop made it down one minute after the record.

Fact: I tip my hat to the defenders. Probably not the best idea ever. But someone had to do it. And I'm glad it was you and not me.

Good show ladies and gentlemen. I'm sure you gave it your all and we gave it ours. No amount of excuses will make up for what happened. But just remember this, at no point what so ever did we want to end the game in record time, or at all. It was our goal to make it last all 5 hours.

Nah. Those numbers were a definate factor.

Sorry, but big games like that - rate of fire simply IS a factor.

Five hundred pumpers attacking next fall (in theory according to Jim Masse) attacking 150 semi players would be more fair IMO. Also, that would keep the players who reinsert right in the castle from getting immediately hosed during respawn. That was a big problem this time, and I think most people saw or at least heard of some of the direct consequenses of out of control semi players excessivly hammering insertion points with more force than necessary.

5.5-1...nuff to justify to me why we lost

i believe you that you guys werent going for the record

i comehow remember canadian chris saying that not to long ago

"And I'm glad it was you and not me."

that says it all right there.

"putting relentless amounts of paint through every opening"

oops, thats a telling statement also, hehehehe

:P

hehehe, I remember chasing the attackers out of wall 4 on the reinsertion. the control was minimal at best because I was at the back gate in about 2mins at most :D

in the end, it was fun. I am sure there will be far too many monday morning quarterbacks . . . lets all remember that they weren't there.

proud of you guys better than i did today

Actually, it WAS said by a member of Blues Crew that they wanted a record. Most of the bigger forums you will see "CanadianChris" .... here is a quote from Warpig.

>Well I say at EMR's Castle Conquest It's time to find Out. Pumps Defending
>HAHAHAHAHA I don't think I have Laughed so Hard In years. I am looking
>forward to breaking the record of the shortest held castle in history. SO COME
>ON PUMP PLAYERS PUT UP OR SHUT UP. To the semi players attacking.

-Hans

only reason I quoted PNB was because I do belive it was Chris saying that we lost in 45 minutes... and um 650/100 equals 6.5 to 1 odds.

Once they posted on our dead zone we were toast, and that really ruined the game for me... so much that I do not belive I will defend another castle until they have a safe respawn zone for BOTH teams.

but I still had fun meetin everyone :)

This is not why we lost. (We lost, we were not defeated.)

We were outplayed.

Due to a friendship inside Pub Crawling I learned after the game about Colin's plan. It was simple, elegant and in the end well executed.

When I heard the refs essentially "forced" Colin to end the game I was not happy. (Actually I was angry :vangry: ) He should have been allowed to end the game in his own way. I for one would never have surrendered, but would have continuously recycled until the last moments of the game. When the whistle blew I was shocked as I was prepared to rush out and get hit again.

I was suspicious of the official time being so close but just beyond the record for the quickest victory. It seemed to good to be true and very much like a manufactured face saving occurance. We will never know the truth of that.

I had a great deal of fun. I did not go with the idea that I had to win (I never do, I just like to play, victory is just a bonus) but that I would have fun. No where in my mind was the honor of pump play at stake. Pump play is advanced by individuals going to fields and playing amoung the semis to demonstrate that pump is a viable (but not the only) form of play.

If they do this again will I go as a pump defender? Yes. But probably not stock class.

Anyway, I'll post a large bit of observations in the morning when I'm more awake.

To Pub Crawling and all the attackers of the First Game, congratulations on your victory.

I'm with you on that! Hell we only had like 2 minutes til reinsertion then? They should have let us have one more last hurrah there heh. Hell, I was starting to talk up doing a massive banzai charge, with us front guys getting cut down for the guys behind. Operation Human Shield heh. It's one of thsoe things now since it didn't happen, I have to think it would have helped us hold out longer and push out into the castle again :P

I would have been game for that. I was about to follow Weltman's example and rush out into the yard on that one. :wacko: :blink: :lol:

I agree, it was a factor.

But at the same time, I believe that it was not inevitable that we would loose all the props just becasue we were outnumbered.

Because if the only thing that counts is how much paint is slung in the air, then 500 pumps (many being stock class) are not going to have a hope of taking the castle from 150 semi defenders.

After all, we tout our skills as pump players as being so often superior to semi players because we do not put hopperfulls of paint in the air all at once.

And to degrade the attackers by simply saying numbers won the day is just not right.

Hans, Hans, Hans. I'm sure Chris was just trying to get more people worked up for the game.

No one outside of Pub Crawling knew what the real plan was until just before game time. But it was said at the opening speech that we do not want the record, we do not want to to get all the objectives and that the sword gets brought to Colin.

As for saying glad it was you guys not me... I meant glad it was you getting shot and not me. :)

Overall definetly one of the more interesting games. I really wish they would have let us stretch it out longer. As for safe reinserts for defenders... well.. if you hadn't let us push you back into your insertion zone it would have been a lot safer for you. :rolleyes:

As of friday we were only "Slightly better then walkons" I hope today we're viewed as slightly better then that. Neither pump nor semi is more accurate then the other, an aimed shot is an aimed shot. I don't care what kind of gun you shoot... what kind of clothes you wear to play... or even where you like to play. If you're on the other team I'm going to shoot at you.

tuff, we talked a lot of smack before this game. Did you honestly not foresee god awful hosing coming from those guys? I did and personally I don't give a hoot, we deserved it. You pull a move like we do and it's like b!t@h slaping someone in the face. I pulled a sucide and got 8 guys with a grenade, I now have 13 welts on my back from when I curled up because the players I got hosed me. Where they out? Yeah, but I expected it pulling a stunt like that.

Despite this there where MANY honorable semis on the field and it was fun playing with em all.

Bridger I was one of the guys there for operation human shield with the grenade folks behind damn I wish that would have happened


I do not care what they say Blue and all the ref's said 59 minutes 30 seconds anyone that says otherwise is just nutz

as for them having the opjectives at 45 minutes I do believe that and I also believe that pub crawling wanted the game to continue as did I

As for doing this again just tell me when and I will do my best to show again

Now that is done with all I have to say is that I had fun and that is what matters

Let me tell you one thing, I love the fact that more depth was brought into the Castle game. The idea of trying to force a surrender was an inspired thought, and he picked the ideal event to bring it out.

I think Colin's idea combined with the pump defense has started a change in the Conquest games that will add an entire new level to the strategy and concept each time it's run. These things have actual themes to them now rather than just a paint slinging contest, I see wonderful new directions coming for it.

The more I think about the event, and digest what happened in everything, I'm ready to call it one hell of a success for all parties involved and it's time for me to step away from the arguments over who said what and what happened when. This sucker has the potential to be one of the more controversial debates in quite a long time, I'll leave the smack talk up to the people that are good at it.

-Hans

OK, from what I saw, there are a few reasons we didn't win (or last longer...like Rathbaster, I wasn't there to win...just have a good time...). They are, in no particular order:

1. numbers -- it's obvious to anyone inside the castle that we did not have the 150 defenders that were expected
2. defensive "preparations" -- I have worlds of respect for Jim Masse and all he's done and is doing to promote pump and SC play, but the sheer glut of those accursed barrels inside the courtyard did little more than give the attackers plenty of cover to make a break for. I would have opted for a "scorched earth"-type defense. Leave the courtyard virtually bare, or at least have clusters of barrels with lots of open space between them and the doorways. But, hindsight is 20/20 and we can't change anything now, so there's not use crying over spilt paint...
3. layout of re-insertion area for defenders -- I'll agree with any who posted that earlier. Basically, there was a quick exit to the courtyard or the snake through the walls toward the front door. Another exit to the outside of the castle would have helped early on in the game.

Regardless, I had a blast. This is the first time since I started playing in the early 90s that I've gotten to play with more than a handful of other pumpers at a time. The comaraderie alone was worth the drive (and the soreness). Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. I'd start conditioning my right arm several months in advance (I gotta admit, in the last 5 minutes of the game, I had a whole bunch of chopped balls and double-feeds because I just wasn't consitantly pumping and my shoulder is pounding today). Also, having the chance to meet so many that I've only met on-line before was very cool. Among those:

Bridger and family
Big Matt, Goat, Yankee, and Kozmo of the Mad Customs crew
Sector7G
Hans from Siegecraft (thanks for the Autospirit - when I wasn't chopping paint it was driving tacks! About 40 attackers fell at the business end of that thing)
Punisher and HaveBlue
Rathbaster
Bored383
Weltman & Repoman
Jim, Missy and the rest of the PB Marshalls
10-shot (who could have a real future as a motivational speaker - a la Chris Farley's "Matt Foley")
Knightmare Tango (not the first time I've met/played with them, but, as always, a memorable experience)

And many, many more that I can't remember right now.

As I said, I had a blast, and that, I think, was the goal for everyone there: attacker or defender. In the end, regardless of who wins, loses, or draws, it's a game. To some extent, I DO agree with Hans about "pump being back". On the walk back to the rec center at least a half-dozen of the attackers (mostly kids that have never actually shot a pump gun) gave me a pat on the back and asked to look at my Sniper II...even more commented on my VSC Phantom during the second game. If just one of those kids decides to pick up a pump and give it a try, it was worth it.

-Wycke

I had a great a time. I feel a few things could have been different. But overall it was great.

All i know is the with a:
110 defenders and like 550 attackers we held the castle 59 min 30 sec. This is what i was told but this was early in the day.

Now i say we did a damn good job. Becasue i knew we were gonna fall. It was just a matter of time. I do and dont believe that they were trying to beat the record. With that many attackers they all couldnt have felt the same way as Pub Crawling. I held the lower tower after everyone else was gone for 5 min by myself with around 50 attackers just shooting at me then they finnally got me. We held the tower for like 30min or so. I shot 20 people the whole game. But i spent most of my time in the dead box because i would run out to the front gate and give em hell and get shot out after like 4 or 5 eliminations. But none the less with as much cheating as the attackers were doing i can see why they over ran us so fast. I gogged a guy while he was shooting and he just sat there and kept shooting. I saw guys just stick guns thru cracks and over bunkers and not even expose their bodies while shooting. I saw so much cheating on the part of the attackers that i am surprised that we held as long as we did. Now i am not saying that some of the defenders didnt cheat hell i only met around 25-30 of the defenders so i cant say that we were completely honest either. I just dont know. But of the people i met mostly SCP and Marshalls we played honest ball. I give props to the attackers. And i give Mad Props to the defenders. We were under strength and we still held them. Hell i was wanting a rematch for the second game.

First and foremost, CONGRATULATIONS ATTACKERS! You fought hard and fast, did a great job. I applaud you then and again now. Excellent work. No matter what is said, excuses made, or anybody that tries to downplay your effort and everything. No matter what.... you won! And did it in blazing time. Congrats.

Now then. How long was the Official hold? On record, 59.5 minutes. Off the record if there wasn't the insightful surrender, and they just wanted to rush in and get the worlds' fastest win..... could've been 45 minutes. There is none of this "we'll never know" jargin. WE DO KNOW! There were refs there keeping track, and Pub Crawlers could've ended this much faster than they did. We know this.

And we also know that "attakcers had Wall 4 control in 10 minutes" is complete bs! I was there at the 15 minute mark with a few other defenders AT WALL FOUR! So you can not have complete control of something when we were there stopping a rush down the hill. I think you mean wall 2, the opposite side (I'll explain later). I dunno, everybody gets these numbers messed up. Blue needs to paint giant numbers by the doors. So I could've been lied to but with what the refs told me I was at Wall 4 guarding it with Target from Damage! With Wall 1 the front door by Joint Fury Town and the Trojan Rabbit, then the number of walls going clockwise to 4.

Now why did we lose? Firepower, disorganization, lazy pump players? Honestly, I can think of 2 of the biggest factors. And it wasn't just that "they used electros." It wasn't firepower by how much one person could shoot a second. It was firepower by number of people!

We had barely over half the pre-registered number of defenders. An official count held a little over 80 DEFENDERS inside those walls. We didn't even have 100 defenders! Where the [bleep] did the other half of our force go? Did they think it was NEXT weekend? Almost HALF of our pre-reg didn't even show up to this event. And how many attackers were there? I don't know, I couldn't get somebody to give me an official number. But even if it's the 550 that I keep seeing floating around, you take those numbers (lets say 85 to make it easy math). 550 divided by 85 = 6.47 (I rounded).

About 6.5 to 1. Those were our odds. For every one pump defender in those walls, there were 6 attackers and a midget. That is it right there. Flat out that was the biggest factor above all that lead to the downfall of the castle. Not their rate of fire, but just sheer number of players! They could easily perform a human shield opperation sacrifice attack and still be sitting pretty.

There was also a completely abandond wall 2, players were all outside the walls while the attackers were moving in? Do not even get me started because I do not want to know how that happened.

Now besides numbers, what was the other major factor that I contribute to this? Easy. Myself! Not because I'm a target that they wanted to slaughter, it wasn't me personally they were after (I hope!). It was for the beer. Because they were trying hard to get into those walls in the first 5 minutes. If they did, I'd have been buying them a keg of beer.

Of course...... it was 10min. before they made their way in, so technically I won THAT bet at least! No matter, I bought them the damn keg any ways.

I can't believe I left out the "beer" factor from my analysis on different boards! NOW we have the definitive reason why: BEER

...maybe I should take up drinking :P

the numbers are just that - numbers. It was still a great time, and I'd be one of the first to take off the barrel bag and do it again. Big props to worrptangl for holding down the SCP tent, and especially for digging in his heels when we were the only 2 left in the tower and 40-45 attackers re-inserted in front of us. I zipped up to more of them before going down, and leaving the poor man to fend the wolves by himself. If I offended any of the attackers by whatever it was I screamed about their mothers while shooting....don't worry..you're young, you'll get over it.

Like i said i wanted a rematch for the second game. So i know that at least me and amhildreth would have been the first to sing up for that.

Oh yeah no biggie leaving me there Andy i had fun. And idid hold for close to five minutes after u left.

now you all know we will be having a huge pump event next year as well, probably several.. details will be released as soon as there ironed out :D

Wall two was not abandoned. There was a skeleton crew left there and the attack toward this wall was completely repelled at the bottom of the hill and sent back through JF town. When the few of us that were left ran back up the hill, entering back through that wall (2), we proceeded toward the rear wall that had been breached. It was completely under control, no attackers had made it there and the defenders waved us in. The rear wall fell as did the #4 wall which faces Purple Circles. The defenders in both walls fought like heck to stop them but they pushed in hard and with numbers. After that the attackers were breaching everywhere.

Ok. I'm too damn confused....which wall was wall 2? Insert, turn left and thats it?
If thats the case, it definitely was NOT under attackers control in 10 minutes, I remember going back through there after the first insertion and we were still skirmishing 20 yards outside of it. When the back wall fell, it streamed into wall 2. Then our counterattack drove them totally out of it again for a while. I think the ferocity of our charge caught them by surprise, but we just ran out of juice after 10-12 rooms.

-Hans

Hans.
That's what we call wall two Stilt Village side). Mike Hanse calls it four. They really should put Roman numerals on the walls.

We must have done that push together to retake that rear wall. I think the push ran out of player (taken out) which caused it to run out of juice :-) We made it 3/4 of the way down, if not slightly more, and then were stopped a section before the corner. I was taken out by friendly fire from the front wall, as I crossed an opening, as was Joe from our team. I think only two were left when we exited, one may have been you? An example of a negative with pump players and their darn accuracy, even on friendlies ;-)

I don't know if I got you, but I know as I was advancing with you guys I think through the wall facing fort-ftroop. I accidentally tagged one of our guys in the back of his hopper (a ricochet I think) heh. I was shooting out a window and he just popped up as I pulled the trigger, right into the path of my ball :(

You Guys are right..... It was the wall by the purple circles that fell first....

The plan was to send Joint Fury to wall four or the stilt village side. They are know for attacking wall 2 so this was a change. The bone heads hit wall one. Pub Crawling and PA Brew Crew Hit wall 2 purple circles. The guys you sent up to puple circles almost stopped us. The only reason the push did not stop was because there were at least 20 vetran players that kept encouraging everyone to keep moving and push through.

With out this motivation many attackers would have stopped and tried to fight a long ball battle with your defenders. That would have been to your advantage.

Because we took out so many defenders in the purple circles that left just a hand full of defenders to try and keep at least 100 attackers out.

The guys in purple circles did a good job.
The guys in the walls did a good job...

The only difference I saw between Attackers and defenders was in my opinion more over all expirence in playing the castle (both sides had courage, both sides had excellent players, The attackers had a majority of long term castle players.)

Joint Fury did an amazing job on the wall by the stilt village, Bone heads did grate in the town. The push though purple circles moved fast.

I still think you did a great job defending.

canadian chris

If that is wall 2. then it didnt fall till way after the second insertion of the attackers. i was the last to leave the tower and well they hadnt even made it out of the woods on that side. when i was walking by.

I would've been much happier with North-South designations, or even High (for the ridge) and Low (for what I think you're calling 2).
The whole color scheme was confusing and not used after the first shots rang out.
But since this was my first Castle, I can't really say much.
It was fun and everyone played thier buttstocks off.
I'll never forget the "oh crap" I felt upon seeing a few hundred semi's come marching through the woods towards deuces.
Or on my second insertion after I went back up to the 2ndLevel Front (Purple)wall to see the High Ridge litterly crawling with twitchy finger semis as it rained paint.
I went through 200+ rounds right there firing across the courtyard, trying to stall the rush of players coming up the high-side ramp. I nailed many players, but everytime I popped back up there'd be another 3-4 to replace everyone 1 I eliminated.

Man, what an awesome game that was.

Yeah while u where doing that hans, bridger, 10shot, Andy and i were all getting pounded in the tower from every angle imaginable.

Bridger,

It might have been, not sure. What can ya do, it was fairly likely that it might happen with the speed that we were all trying to retake that wall. We were all at a medium run, taking section after section. Several players were shadowing us in the court yard and firing in. My guess is that was you? We also had one or two with us in the wall.

The thing that really pissed me off was after we reinserted we were hit by friendly fire for a second time after rushing back to the rear wall. and taking several sections in the center. This time I know for sure that it came from the front wall, by the insertion, because I saw the person that did it. When we headed to the dead zone I told that section of the front wall to please look before they shoot. It was very frustrating,

worrptangl,

I take it you were a defender on that wall? I believe you mentioned that you went down the hill at game on also, unless I'm mixing up posts? We exited the rear ramp so as not to clogg the main door. We had anticipated the attackers running at game on and that a flank would be needed back farther. That didn't happen so we went down the hill farther back and then immediately shifted left into the line to protect the center, those in the tower and prevent them from wrapping around. Were were you at when you went down the hill?

Off the break i was the first to make it down the logging trail to the tower. I went to the second story. After two insertions of the attackers i became the last defender down there. I held 5 more minutes until i was shot out then was there for another few minutes waiting for the shooting to stop. As i walked up the hill the attackers hadnt even broke the woods line they were still there and there were only like 20 or so that i actually passed. After that i reinserted and worked my way to the main entrance of the castle and started fighting them there until i was shot out again. Went back reinserted and did it like 2 more times then the whistle blew.

I was actually in the castle no longer than 10 minutes the rest was sitting in the deadbox and the tower. I was in the tower the longest.

Now i could be wrong about the attacker not have breaching the wall but they we shooting at the second floor and some paint was coming back. None went for the entrance most ran aroun to the front or back.

I think I was behind you guys in the wall, I know I saw one of your group moving through. I had stopped to clear some guys out of the brush, and then shot a few through a window that were up against hte castle walls. Then within 20 or so feet of the door there was this one guy shooting through a window, and there was a shoulder-height barricade that I was shooting over and through the window. I think you guys might have gotten ahead of me then, or maybe I just dont' remember where I was in the walls then heh. I distinctly remember crossing the doorway and going through some huge puddles now...so I forgot oh well. Whoever I hit in their ricochet hopper, I'm sorry! Heh

Worp: are you talking about when I was in the stair well? That sucked a big one.