I found this on a British news website and drilled down more into it.

I don't espouse an opinion either way but I wanted to put it out there:

Cpl Mike Hoffman - Iraq Vets Against the War

He has an opinion....But is there anyone who thinks differently? I think so, In fact I know one who is at this moment is on his way back to Iraq for his second time and sees it totally different....

Hoffman is dillusional.

I quit reading when he said, "There were a lot of things on both ends that were horrible: the dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the fire-bombing of Dresden. Things like that weren’t justified, but they happen in war."

Hiroshima and nagasaki were attrocities? What about Pearl harbor?

Hoffman is a moron through and through.

Why is he dillusional? Do you disagree that they were attrocities? Although there were other atrocities in the world he didn't mention, does that make the examples he did mention less relevant?

Can you see any similarity between Pearl Harbour and invading Iraq? Wasn't that a pre-emptive strike - hitting the enemy before he hits you?

Not sure that calling him a moron is a valid argument.

Anyway - you boys have fun discussing it - I'm off to a scenario at Fort Ord - Woot!!

I just like how open ended his statements are... There are thousands like me. No Kidding, No one likes going to war, no one likes possibly not coming home.

No one likes being away from family....but that does not translate to his side of things either....I don't like going through traffic to work every morning....it does not mean I don't like my job, it does not mean I should boycott my company, it does not mean that all employees will rise up and demonstrate the workplace and capitalism...

But in an all volunteer force there is no way one can say, I didn't know....Once you take the oath, you know.....You go through basic, You know....You go through Tech...You know....

I could see a bit of his point if this were draftees but they aren't. Don't like what's happening, get out, which he did.....There it's all over....

You are SO correct Rexx but I think it shoud be 'Millions like you", as I don't recall you ever volunteering to make a decision to be in the military, to be in harms way, but millions more like you have no problem of sending people to war while you are safe and sound @ home.

I am so glad more people do NOT have that attitute. Strikes and boycotts against unjust companies and industries made this country better.

I don't recall hundreds of thousands of civilians dying (technically being vaporized) @ Pearl Harbor. But of course, YOU, arch, believe everything America has done was for the benefit of Americans in general no matter of the consequence or the justification.

And you say this because? YOU don't agree with him? What makes you think you are in the "right"? Let me put it this way: who's was in recent combat and who's safe and sound @ home?

You're taking that one out of context (again), Mike. He didn't say the company was unjust. He said he doesn't like driving in traffic to get to work. That's not the company's fault.

What would you have chosen in the situation? An amphibious assault on mainland Japan, which would have resulted in the loss of AT LEAST 100,000 American soldiers and Marines, or kill the enemy's people to avoid losing yours?

Do you really expect our leaders making the decision in that case to put the other enemy before our own soldiers?

Refer to last point.

Are you sure this time, Mike? If you'll recall, you said the same thing about me, and were dead wrong. Are you just assuming again what Rex's life has consisted of like you did mine?

I do have a question, though:

Why does no one want to comment on the other soldier's letter that I posted?

Answer:
Because it goes against what people like Mike want to believe about the war. Y'all just want to let the posts describing our soldiers as honorable and heros die, because you would rather picture them as bloodthirsty and savage.

I'll bet that y'all though Full Metal Jacket was a great American movie, and that We Were Soldiers was all right wing propaganda, right?

and yet ANOTHER fellow American sending people to war without having to make the sacrifices to BE IN the military. You know, safe and sound @ home.
That will be you murf. :rolleyes:

And YOU think "Unfit for Command" was the truth too! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And YOU are being shot at?

unlike YOU murf, I am not the one approving for sending people to war.

Look, all I did was ask if you were SURE that Rex had never served. I asked simply because you have a history of assuming pieces of people's pasts, and being 100% wrong.

However, If you want to run off on your ranting tangents with that question, go ahead.

I won't be involved with it this time.

the only thing I am 100 percent sure is that YOU murf, have never served.

I got the hot dogs, Mike! Get these flames a roastin'!

Okay, I guess you have already forgotten our past debates:

http://invisionfree.com/forums/StockClassP...opic=3958&st=40

Do you remember that one? 12th post down.


Edit:
Cleaned up a bit now, to avoid any problems.

Uh...wasn't Murf in the Air Force, Mike?

and ANOTHER who has no problems with sending people to war but have never BEEN IN the military, that will be YOU silk

(seeing a pattern yet bobo :lol: , but there is one more :lol: )

Meaning what? The IRR? :rolleyes: :lol:

Way to dodge the proof of your wrongness rather than own up to it and admit your mistake.

Yet, when Rex, Arch, or anybody else says something wrong, and ADMITS IT, you won't let it die. You just have to keep pissing and moaning about their mistake.

Admit you were an assuming, wrong, arrogant little prick, and this'll all end.

(and it really does feel good to be a man once in awhile and admit your shortcomings)

Not sure what IRR is, and don't give a damn. But I was a Reservist while in school.

Well, I'm off to work for the evening.

Mike, try not to give yourself a brain hemorhage trying to think up more lies, rants, and general crap while I'm gone.

YOU were supposedly in the military and you don't know what IRR is? hmmm :unsure: <_<

What are you working on? Your knot tying? :lol: :lol:

I'm 18 and in college, signing up for Army ROTC. What more do you want from me, Mike? Drop everything now and enlist right away?

Bah, I knew many people who were in the ROTC but never made it in the real military. :lol: :lol:

But I wish you luck.

edit: Oh wait, you mean to tell me that you have not yet signed up? :lol: <_< :unsure:

Okay, going back to my original question that Mike dodged so masterfully...

Of course, I really can't blame you for dodging that one, Mike. I mean, if someone were to ask me a question, the answer to which I knew would make it strikingly obvious that I don't give a crap about the lives of my own soldiers and would think of the enemy first in my strategic planning, chances are I would want to dodge it too. I mean, I don't think I'd want to admit that Japan's citizens were more valuable than our soldiers, either.

Oh, and about Silk's ROTC thing:

ROTC is under the category of "Inactive Reservist." That means that he CAN be called up to go serve. It's not likely, because they would go through all the active Reserves first. But he is signing up knowing full damn well that he may be pulled out of school to go fight.

Yet, you want to diminish that decision and pass it off with a simple, "Bah!!" What the hell is wrong with you, that you would look down on that.

Or is it simply because he is doing it while he is going to school at the same time, trying to make something out of himself for the future? No one is committed to defending this country and serving in the military unless they make a career out of it? Is that your outlook?

Come to think of it, by using your own logic that means that he and I, and anyone else who went to college, can talk down to you and say that you don't care about providing for your family because you never went to college.

(I don't know if you did or not, but you said the same about me and the military when you didn't know one way or the other. If you did, then I will admit that this is wrong. But that still won't change the context of the example).

I thought YOU had to go to work or something. Stop being a stereotypical lazy American and do WORK. Not surf around the 'net. :P

I look down on ANYONE who has no problem with sending people to war w/o being in the military and KNOW what it IS to be like IN the Military. NOT reserve, NOT IRR, NOT ROTC ( :rolleyes: )!

24/7. That is a concept many of you have no idea, no clue and NO DESIRE to know what that is like.

So murf, how many civilians were killed in Pearl Harbor? That's not MY reference. That was Rexx's. Nice dodge on YOUR part.

BTW: A program I watched on the History Channel (:lol:) made it perfectly clear that Japan KNEW it was losing the war. It's own Leaders were calling for surrender terms, BEFORE the first Atomic Bomb was dropped.

As for your "theories" about losing 100k soldiers/marines, well I trust that about as much as I trusted modern intelligence agencies around Sept. 10, 2001

So you disagree with dropping the nukes on Japan? I don't know your family history but chances are you wouldn't exist if we didn't drop those bombs.

ROFLMAO!!! I was in Iraq the same time he was you freaking moron! I was there longer than he was. There goes your asinine theory.

freaking owned, shithead.

He is wrong because he talks out of his arse and uses lies to back his points up.

Dillusional because he bases his arguments on lies. Just my opinion. I am probably dillusional to him.

No dropping those nukes weren't attocities. We were justified.

Yes it makes them less relevent, it shows his one sidedness on the issue. If he only bings up nuking japan and what we did to the germans that jsut shows me he hates america putting it's nose in other countries and agrees with an isolationist point of view.

The first thing that pops into my mind when attrocity is mentioned in refernce to WWII is what Hitler did to Jews and second Pearl harbor. Maybe I am brainwashed, but I think a majority of the populace agrees with me.

Look, there is nothing similar. Iraqi's didn't wake up one morning with our bombers overhead. They had months to prepare.

Second, I a not trying to argue he is a moron because 1, he does that himself quite well and 2, him being a moron is my opinion.

Lastly, that guy was probably a shitbag. If you are or were in the marines you know what that is.

of course you don't. They don't concern you. (it was in the past and it does not concern you) My father and grandfather was in American Concentration Camps set up by YOUR paranoid people (in violation of the US Constitution). To provide YOUR people a sense of security. So I can honestly say that YES, I WOULD be still here. Ya idiot. (or can I call you a freaking moron too, you freaking moron)

Really? Too bad you of all people had to come back then (IF you were even there in the first place). You should of stayed there, since YOU are such a war monger and since YOU think the troops there are doing well. Perhaps you need to go back. I hear they need 12k more troops between now and Jan. 30.

But again, since you've been back, YOU are safe and sound right? Or do you live in a combat zone?

And again, why are you so against our OWN troops? Why so much hate against American Troops that don't share the propaganda that YOU subscribe too? Why hate fellow Americans at all? Because of your misguided ideals that ALL Americans should follow the President under any circumstances? That ALL Americans should do exactly as what they are told to by their goverment for "their own safety?"

Kind of UNAMERICAN of you Arch to not allow fellow Americans to express themselves under the United States Constitution. Or don't you believe in that document anymore?

And look in a mirror before you call me a liar, you idiot. You lie to yourself if you call yourself an American 'patriot'. OTOH, have you EVER called yourself a Patriot?

At least something WE can agree on.

really? Well tell me: Why did the USA did NOTHING to stop hitler until AFTER Pearl?

OR perhaps you did not know the USA did not enter the War until After the bombing of Pearl? That would be 1941 for the ignorant.

O.K., I had to overlook my policy of ignoring Mike because he attacked a friend of mine;

Mike, why is it that you constantly espouse free speech and the right to criticize your government but if someone wants to voice an opinion about where and when to use the military, suddenly they have no rights unless they are military?

Second, I would prefer to fight next to Rexx against anyone than fight next to a pu$$y like you and the guy in the article, anyday. We don't need pu$$ies in the military. It is bad for morale. We need violent men who understand that they are pawns in the grand scheme and will do what they are told and not b!t@h and whine about it like little girls. (That increases my respect for them, by the way, not decreases it).

Mike, before you try one of your lame comebacks, answer the first question if you want me to respond to your post or my policy of ignoring you will be reinstated.

And the circle is complete!

to bobo, if and when you DO get to read this: am I psychic or what!?!? :lol: :lol: :lol:

And ONE MORE person who has never served in the military but has NO problem of sending people to war. Am I correct on this? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The US Constitution grants freedoms to ALL. I just challenge those who will limit freedoms. Free speech is meaninless if people like arch likes to condemm those who disagree with HIS point of view.

Freedom of the Press is meaninless if the federal goverment places limits to what is news, or be like the News Media in the Ukraine and have the govt. TELLS us what is the news.

I have NEVER asked anyone to define who they are as Americans. I have demanded of those so-called "patriots" who do they think they are demanding sacrifices when they themselves never made any themselves.

As for the military issue, why should some schmuck like Bush ever be in charge of the military if they never lived the 24/7 military way? And yes, that schmuck title also includes Clinton.

Sorry but living 'like' the military is not being IN the military. 90 days is NOT being in the military.

Really? But you and rexx, as the cowards that you both are, never served in the military.

You are correct, I did not serve in the military. Please note that none of your reply came close to answering my question.

WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION, MIKE???

And stop editing your post every five minutes....I have had to rewrite my reply three times.

Fine, then I will say it so even an idiot can understand.

WHY SHOULD COWARDS who never served IN THE MILITARY have ANY opinion of what the military does or how the military should operate?

They have NO IDEA to what the military life entails.

And please, if you and rexx and arch can't keep your posts clean, then I suggest you take it to PBN ok.

The idiot is the one who doesn't know how to answer the question. Your reply states your opinion. Your opinion does not justify negating someone's right to free speech.

My question is why someone, in your opinion, who has not served in the military, no longer has the right of free speech concerning the military and how it is used.

Your tactic of calling me an idiot and trying to distract from answering the question is why I don't debate you anymore, Mike. You are not intellectually honest.

Now, try again.

Hell, I will dumb it down even further for those who don't understand English (or are cowards), I will call this [PBN idiot mode]

Say like you are at the paintball field and some loud mouth semi player keeps trashing talking about you and your sc/pump ways.

Knowing full well this semi player has NEVER played pump (simply because he's too young or too stupid to even figure out how to turn on his electro), do you?

1) Ignore the fool because he's entitled to his/her opinion?
2) Bunker the idiot in the mask, twice for good measure and yell out "YEAH, YOU BETTER RUN B*TCH!!! YOUR DADDYS IN THE WOODS!!!"?

Frankly, I would choose option 2 (even though I have no idea what "YEAH, YOU BETTER RUN B*TCH!!! YOUR DADDYS IN THE WOODS!!!" actually means. Their "opinions" are meaningless to me and show me they are truly ignorant they really are.

Unless you have played pump, you know NOTHING about pump. You are entitled to your "opinions" on what pump play is though. But if you never played pump, what do you KNOW about pump. Not a damn thing.

When a newbie to pump has actually played pump even once, it gives that player a "new" perspective, even though it was always in front of them.

[/PBN idiot mode]

But you being the moron you are, calling me a pu$$y is acceptable? Well go cheney yourself, Helmet. Quit being the hypocrite you make yourself look like.

I guess that's why neither you, or rexx (and a few others I won't waste bandwith over) has BEEN IN the military right. :lol:

And how would you know about what the military needs? YOU NEVER SERVED.

Coward is a strong word mike . . . and after this latest tirade I have to wonder why the admins put up with your belligerence and hostility towards others. I would have banned you long ago, how you keep getting 2nd chances is beyond me. You offer nothing but abuse, you are as bad as pbnation, and you are the biggest cause of problems on this board.

the sun does not rise and set on you mike, and you frankly are the biggest hypocrite of all.

I honestly don't believe you would act like this face to face to anyone. Talk about a serious case of IPD.

*awaits the inevitable tirade from mike, the spoiled 3yr old of the board*

Go cheney yourself bored. Why should I put up with YOUR insults, Rexx's insults and threats or arch's insults or helmet's?

You are so blind to what THEY post out of YOUR ignorance and intolerance of anything that does not correspond to YOUR 'views'. That's why YOU don't see Helmet calling ME a pu$$y. Or is that acceptable? Hypocrite.

I am not going to let YOU idiots and jerks call me names w/o me responding. And YOU have the gall to call me a hypocrite.

I tried to respond in an orderly fashion but NO you people start with the insults. Grow up people.

And yet another person resonding to this thread in which they NEVER served in the military. That will be YOU bored.

SO what are YOU bored? A pu$$y or a coward?

HOLY sh*t!!! Alrighty everyone, please sit [pbn]the fuck[/pbn] down and quite up.

Man, where do I begin? I had to use 3 tabs on browser just to get a handle on what happend here in the past 12 hours. And my wife's upstairs sleeping, the kids are asleep (for now), and I'm supposed to be getting some household work done.

But no, I've got to come in here and curtail you fire-heads from creating another mini-OT thermonuclear war!?!

You want to know why that other pro-war thread didn't get anywhere, becuase nobody's pro-war enough on thier 'own' to support it. The psy-ops is desperate to create another hero out of the cluster-fuck that is Iraq and I've seen 10 "letters from Iraq" the past month that don't hold a god damn match to the hundreds of other posts and photos showing the death, maiming, destruction, and total freaking bedlam that really is cosuming both our troops and the iraqi population.

Listen, again, we can not possible hope to cover everything that is going on over there. There is simple not enough verifible or believable information from either pro/anti war side to really understand or discuss anything that's happening. I've seen it attempted on several forums, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't, and it won't. That's why I didn't bother commenting on the other thread, and that's why I didn't even read this thread until I was notified about it. You can't know, we don't know, and there's no sense in trying to debate whether Iraq is right or wrong. All YOU can do is gather your own information and come to your OWN conclusions. You want to cross post from other websites (I dare anyone to read LibertyForum daily, I do, and it's very hard on the mental filters), be prepared for the counterstrike.

Now, let's get to the name calling and general 'bad' behaviours on display in this thread. It's 0010 my time, so please excuse me if I miss something.

ALL OF YOU NEED TO TAKE A GOD DAMN SMOKE BREAK!!

Most of you would learn much (including Mike) to use proper debate edicate. You can not assume a factoid to pose another question if that factoid is not know to be true. And by furthering the questions into areas of greyness (such as who's life is more valued, a home nation's soldiers or the citizens of the 'enemy' nation) you can not possible hope to reach any conclusions. These questions do nothing but muddy the waters and insite further tangets filled with emotional rantings (I'm a victim, I served, kill'em'all, etc..)

Crap, 0025. I will take a smoke break here, grab a beer, and return to further my retribution upon the lot of you. :evil:

Here, Mike, YOU are the hypocrite.

Take a look, Mike. You're posting rants more often than anyone else here, why don't you go to work like the rest of us?

I would normally stay out of these b!t@h-fests and just be embarrassed at the childish ways that we here in the off-topic seem to be acting in, but it's really gone too far. Free speech is the right given to all of us in our Constitution. We're allowed to say what we like. You preach that, and then you attack everyone else whose views are contradictory to yours. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, Mike. Why can't you see that? Why must you attack everyone in here who disagrees with you? Honestly, I'm going to agree with Bored. Were I an administrator here, I'd have lost tolerance for you long ago.

Yet again, hypocrisy.

No, I've never served in the military. I don't plan on it. It's not something I want to do. I don't feel like going overseas to get fired upon, or fire upon anyone, for that matter. Does that make me a coward? Maybe. But it's my choice. However, I'm never going to question the honor of my friends who have made the choice to join up. They knew full well going in that they'd be sent overseas, possibly never to come back, and they embraced that. They're fulfilling their duty to their country, basically sitting ducks repairing another nation that wants them dead. There's something to be said about folks who can do that. I have friends who have made it home safe, and a couple that have died. I always hope for their safe return, but if they don't make it back, I know that they're in a better place, and they died fulfilling their duty as a small piece in a much larger puzzle. That's honor.

Am I a coward for not doing the same? You decide, as you already have against many else here. But, if you have a problem with someone, why don't you settle it in the paintball arena, rather than attacking their person? That's why we're all here, isn't it? To share a common love for this sport.

So, in short, grow up. Quit being such a belligerant prick, and play some ball.

I'm off to bed...work calls in 6 hours. Goodnight, everyone.

--Brandon :)

See now StrokerAce, you are in the wrong here. You did nothing to comment on the orginial post topic (a letter which I haven't even bothered to read b/c I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere and it doesn't really matter at this point) nor the other posts immediately following. All you did was continue the flame fest.

For anyone else looking at this. Read the first 4-5 posts, forget the rest.
Yes, as soon as Mike reply's to Rexx, it all goes downlhill from there.

I don't think I like people who use lots of Quote boxes in their replies...