Old timers may remember every time we picked up a copy of APG, there was the ads in the back for some nelson clone stock class pump gun. Usually these didn't cost alot compared to the other guns of that time. While I'm sure that the quality wasn't the same as a Phantom of a Line SI, its kind of hard to screw up a nelson design. Even BE was able to get it right with the Tiger Shark, minus a velocity adjuster.

Wouldn't it be cool to see this pop up again, since supposedly pump is on the rise?

It would be awesome.

It would be good for the fact that it would help people get into the sport for cheap, but it would also be bad for the sport in that the cheap knock off guns would likely not perform quite as well as some of the better guns out there and it could discourage people to continue to pursue pump play. If they get the gun, and it cant shoot worth a crap, breaks and lets them down they will likely switch back to semi play. Phantoms and used Snipers are cheap enough, and they are great guns.

The best hope I see of this happening is converting Trracers or Mavericks by cutting down the barrel and adding a stock class feed.

The barrel's easy to cut but all the Trracer/Maverick bodies I've seen are direct feed so this would involve a bit of work.

Could happen but I think it would be such a small market, the Trracer/Maverick bodies would have to be bought up in bulk for an unreasonably low price - $20-40 max.

Figure at least a couple of hours of machining at $40/hr minimum... that's still a $100 marker.

Better bet would be to sell a conversion kit for a Maverick so folks can do the work themselves.

I don't think Interceptor is talking SC specifically. Just old cheap Nelson based pumps in general. Like the Trracers and Mavericks.

I don't see how a cheap-o Nelson based pump could go wrong, aside from a Talon. Currently there's plenty of cheap, crappy STBB's that kids buy that aren't even worth using. I'm sure everyone here would take a Trracer, or similar pump, over most of the current run STBB's. Why? That Trracer is going to work every time.

Dave Winters (WINTEC) is still in business, most likely has all the tooling still. He made mose of them....................... :huh:

I disagree. Interceptor is talking about entry level pumps. When I first started the Tigershark was the most expensive gun I could afford. $198 for a base level Phantom is going to be a little too much when players who are new to the sport can get a serviceable, entry level, electro semi for less than that. It’s also hard to get new players to get used guns online unless they know something about them or have someone to coach them along. This discussion is very similar to my thread Lamenting Loss of Mid-Price Pumps on McarterBrown(http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/dead-zone/98077-lamenting-loss-mid-price-pumps.html)

I certainly agree that quality is an issue. I don't want BE to come out with another low quality Saber that turns people off to pumps, but the Tigershark was a surprisingly good gun. I would be happy if someone could come up with a Tigershark with a ball detent and velocity adjuster, though I would love to see Traccers roll off the lines again.

Right now people have a choice between a BE Talon and a Phantom/Sniper/Kaos etc, but nothing in between. When I try to get new players (or experienced players) to try pump or stock I let them use the good stuff (my phantom or P68-SC) and I go with the Splatmaster or Tigershark. If they like it enough I can then give them some advice on getting their own pump marker, but rarely do they want to spend as much as they have on a semi. I think most people (myself included) get into pump play when they are bored with a semi or find they don't have enough money for a lot of paint and air, so spending a lot on a gun isn't really an option. Most of the people I started playing with picked up a new or used Maverick or Hornet as a backup gun for between $40 and $85 and I think that the range we are going to need again to get players to switch over. Unfortunately I don't know if anyone could make a profit reviving less expensive Nelson clones.

what would you consider a good price point?

Considering you can get a Talon Ghost package for $30 at Walmart and the next best thing is ~$150, I would say $50-$75.

...which is pretty much NIB or gently used Trracer/Maverick territory. :)

and what would you expect in a 50 -75 dollar marker?
remember take 30% off of that for dealer cost and at least 15% off of that for manufactures markup

so what do you expect for 40 bucks worth of materials and labor?

Not much, but considering that you can get a half-way decent Spyder for about $70 new, I don't see how a comparable pump would be any more expensive.

There are ways to cut cost, especially with plastics.


The cheapest pumps I see today, excepting the Talons and etc, are the AKP and the SL-68 II. Since both are in the $150 range, it is too much for the average player. My shop sells E-Spyders for $150, and even Tippmann 98s are cheaper than Tippmann's pump. No new player will look at that and consider it a good deal, only someone looking to get into pump play.


I'd love to see the Trracers spark up again. Mine is still floating around the forum community somewhere, I may buy it back eventually to keep as a loaner and pump promoter, but my current OC is a Longbarrel and I like it better...


I think the problem isn't that the pumps aren't being made, it is that parts are getting harder to find. Noone makes Trracer barrels anymore, the only places you can get frames are online, nelson parts in general are getting harder to get...

I think that companies are hesitant to make them, as they then need to make an accessory line to match. If we get more parts, I think we may get more interest, and that will lead to more companies making pump guns.



Many local fields have lowered the ROF caps to 10bps and under, not just because of the current tourney setup, but because they want to help promote the sport, get new players to become regulars, and help save people and themselves money.
I've even suggested to several to hold pump-only days, or advertise a discounted entry for pump players.

The more pump players you attract, the less kids get lit up, the more fun they have, the more they come back, the more they look at other players' gear, the more they want it. If the field then sends out a request for pump guns, or provides a company with proof of demand, we may see a rise in a generic pump...

I would pay $75 for a Talon made from the same grade plastic used in the Maverick. It would have to have an aluminum insert in the body for barrel mounting and so the bolt doesn’t wear the body (shouldn’t be hard to do since it’s a clamshell). It could have either Spyder or Cocker threaded barrel and the pump link should be aluminum too. Of course the capability to mount or modify it to mount a Phantom SC feed off the side would be nice too.

Short, durable, cheap Nelson pump with a grip mounted 12 gram and good barrel selection for $75.

Actually I was thinking around $100 like I remember them being advertised, usually with a cool anno color, nothing fancy, though a few offered several barrel lengths or a stock body and a standard body. Forget Talons and the plastic guns, I mean a decent metal nelson gun.

BTW, what ever happened to Taso? their pumps were nice.

Taso was bought by National

spyders are price pointed where they are due to volume.

Tigershark but with spyder threads instead of their slightly off threading.

Ding ding ding ding! Winner!

Even if the pump costs the same or less than a low end semi to actually produce it, they sell hundreds of times as many (or more, hell, I don't know) semis so the margin on the individual gun can be smaller to still turn a bigger profit. That's where any pump maker will run into trouble.

Well Trracers were going for $80 new near me (years ago unfortunately) so I would expect about that quality. I assume the price would have gone up a bit just in material costs, but I doubt ACI spent more than $40 in materials.

Watcher and Yellow#5 have good points about the industry. Even if you were selling them for the price they used to go for you're still competing with low end semi's. Your entire market is going to be people like us and while I hope there are a lot of us and we're successfully recruiting, I don't know if we would be able to support a company. That's why I would be concerned if a new company restarted an old line. I would be afraid some poor guy would pour his life savings into it and not be able to survive the years needed until it took off. While I hate to say it I think BE has the best placement for bringing back quality (ie not the Talon) entry level pumps. I'll be honest, I like my Tigershark and as people said, if it was threaded for a common barrel type (and had a velocity adjuster) it would be a decent gun. I would prefer a metal body too, but considering how much less expensive plastic is I think I would be ok with it as long as they started making them again. I also don't see a big difference between a delrin bolt in a metal body and metal internals in a plastic body.

And skx762, do you mean a Tigershark? Except for the pump arm and Euro-Grip the Maverick was all metal.

As a former ref I shudder every time I think of a clamshell design. It was hard enough cleaning 20-60 Piranha's at the end of the day, I can't imagine what it was like for the poor guys that used rental 98's ;-)

Paint sales are where field owners make their money. They can't make much off of people that shoot a ~bag per day. I've suggested that at a local field before. It never flew for just that reason.

Fields would have to get enough players to make money off the field fee. I'm sure it would be possible, but I don't know how easy it would be.

The really benefit of pump only days or even gravity hopper only days is getting new players into a game where they're not being lit up by some 15 year old who's parents gave him an Angel and a butt-load of paint money so they won't have to talk to him (no offense to Angel owners or tourney players, its more about the bad parenting I saw as a ref).

While a field makes money on paint, its not going to make any money if it doesn't get new players. I think having a more affordable style of play that's friendly to new players is going to get more people playing enough to invest themselves in the sport. That being said, its sometimes very hard to convince field owners that they shouldn't just cater to the 2 case a day crowd.

You make a very good point. I understand completely. It's also too easy now for Senior to buy Junior a complete beginners Ion package off of Ebay that's ramp at max ROF ready, to include a tank, loader and mask.

One of the fields I play at even offers the choice between a 98 or a Vibe as a rental. So you get a lot of first timer kids with a lot of firepower and no understanding about what it can do. It levels the playing field with the current trend in technology, but it offers a potentially hazardous/ferocious day of play for kids that have never played.

Nope I meant Talon. I really liked my Talon but everytime I took it apart the body would crack in another place. The Maverick/Trracers I had had plastic trigger assemblies, they were pretty tough though, a little more flexible than brittle.

I know about the clamshell being hard to tear apart, but it's cheaper to make too and I would like to see an "in the grip" 12 gram for under a $1000. I had a 007 with combat grips and a speedwheel but it still wasn't as easy to change out as my Talon was.

Meh, when I wiin the lottery I will just buy a Duck.

I should mention that the two fields I suggested it to were BYOP fields...

And any added fact that more inexperienced people would be willing to come out, means more equipment rentals, food sales, retail sales, and any of that...


Also, the field I frequent is $30 entry with all day air included. A pump player should only be charged $20 or so, simply because of less air usage if not also foe less mess cleanup...

I'm happy with the non-clamshell design used in the all plastic Tigershark and Stingray. They're still doing it with their newer Spyder clone markers so It must be cheap. I don't know if they could do an in-grip 12 gram though. My Sidekick Semi (also plastic) has the 12g puncture pin and 0-ring sticking off the bottom of the body and the actual chamber and piercing screw as part of the separate grip. Sidekick also did a pump pistol which I believe was the same design. The problem with both Sidekick models was brittle plastic, which as far as I know was never a problem with the Tigershark and Stingray.