I figure the CT topic would be the easiest place to start this post, and I'm sure it has come up many times, but I'm bored. I'll probably jump around a bit, but I'll try to keep my thoughts straight enough. Some of this I picked up off mail to old devs and such, and since when the games were made, there's a lot of things that were left to be assumed, not said, so there's probably discrepencies.

Okay, for anyone that doesn't already know, Trigger, Radical Dreamers and Cross were stemmed from a paradox. There's a few places where this is more evident then others, and there's a lot of questions I have.

CT
-'The Entity'. It's mentioned near the end of the game(traditional ending) that perhaps it was some entity that was leading the group, or perhaps reliving it's memories. While there is a goofy looking humanoid once you defeat the Lavos shell and the large inside form, there's a few people that think that the actual one controlling the time portals and 'leading' the group through all this was Schala's rational mind, shaping events after being linked to Lavos and becoming the Time Devourer. It's a decent idea and easy to work with since it's all a paradox, the Devourer exists outside linear time, and could therefore be doing what she can to lead up to where the world split into multiple dimensions, but since the whole idea of CC's TimeDevourer most likely wasn't even in concept that far back, I'm curious if anyone has a better explination other then "Lavos did it himself to kick his own butt" kind of thing.

-Schala's pendant. Pretty much just curious how after Schala sent the group away with 'the last of her pendant's power' and then it got sucked throught he portal with her never to be seen again, how it wound up with Marle(Nadia) in the future. It's assumed that it already has a generic power, I.E. rewinding time a little to protect the wearer and simply was more powerful when powered up, but I don't see how it could have wandered through the Guardia line to Marle short of assumnig it was just Schala again as the Devourer sending it off to someone in the Guardia line to lead Marle and Crono off through time, ect. But that again doesn't leave much explination as to how it returned to Schala later on after the events of Trigger so that it could be given to Kid when she was reborn* first into the Radical Dreamers world, and again into the CC world.

-Magus/Janus. Yeah, what would be a post without mentioning this horrible joke from the devs? You know his role in Trigger, so I'll explain more about him later.

-Crono, Marle, Lucca. So, they're dead. For Crono and Marle, the best assumption I can come up with is that after the CT events, they were married(assumed in the SNES version, portrayed in a fmv on the PS1 version). That would have left them as the next King and Queen, all arguments aside from real life titles when a common man marries a princess. That would have left them in whatever crossfire existed when Porre rose up against Guardia Kingdom
***I'll make an edit later for the deal with the village of Porre becoming an empire, as soon as I remember where I saved the file I wrote it on. It has to do with a possible reality where Porre traders stumbled onto the newly formed 'El Nido' where CC takes place, and uses the resources there to grow from a tiny little port town, to an empire that stands up to and defeats Guardia. Why this happened is a bit of a question in itself, as it could have been the Porre leader was greedy and corrupt, but that's negated by Crono when doing the quest for the Sunstone which causes all the future leaders of Porre town to be good and generous.
Lucca is a different story. It's directly said at the end of Radical Dreamers that Yomeneko(Lynx) murdered Lucca, but it's never explained as to why exactly that I can remember in RD. In Cross, I don't recall it ever stating that Lucca was actually killed, just kidnapped and never seen again.



Radical Dreamers
After many messages back and forth with devs, this is the point where the series gets wonky. Wonky is the technical term. Due to the interferance of some mysterious entity, assumed to be Schala, leading Crono to confront Lavos and destroy him, all the changes to the timeline split time into an undetermined number of extra dimensions, not just 2 that involve Cross. For example, one where the Reptites exist still instead of humans, one where Lavos was destroyed, one where Lavos was never confronted, one for whether Magus was killed by Frog or not, ect. The idea was that there was one timeline and when it was altered by Crono's group, every alteration split into it's own dimension.

-Schala, Magus, and introducing Serge and Kid. This is the start of where things get funky in the story since not many played this game. Also, due to their explinations, events they made in Radical Dreamers, don't make sense until you run though Cross and look back. Note that RD has multiple storylines once you beat the game, which is just like multiple endings in the other two games. They exists for replayability, but there's only one 'right' ending.

-Schala. As the Devourer exists outside of any linear time, Schala was able to hear Serge as a child, crying. The fact that she was able to hear this beyond time and the split demensions is what caught her attention, but as she wasn't able to search every place in every demension since she was a prisoner, she used her pendant to create Kid, a clone of herself, and gave the clone her pendant. Kid was also able to, with the pendant's power, be reborn into new dimensions as a baby.

-Kid. She was sent early on to the Radical Dreamers' world, found by Lucca, and grew up there. Yomenenko attacked Lucca's orphanage, for unspecific reasons(at least at this point), and killed Lucca. Kid swore revenge, became a thief, and later started her travels. Gil/Magil found her and travelled with her, and later she found Serge. Eventually they're ready to go to Viper manor and steal the frozen flame within, and Kid also wants to get revenge for Lucca's death. During the final fight, reactions between her pendant and the flame cause her dorment memories from the real Schala's life to be restored, and after beating Yomenenko, she kind of freaks out and runs. Magil goes with her, Serge is left behind as he was the 'wrong' one Kid was meant to find, and Kid leaves the demension to be reborn in yet another to start the whole search over again.

-Magus. The most debated mystery is left expecting players to assume it all, but nuts to that. Magus doesn't directly exist anymore. The way the dev that explained it, when the true demension split, Magus himself was broken apart. Each demension DOES have a version of him, however. Each of these versions, however are similar to Schala's clone, Kid. That is to say that they have an affinity for some magic, but are no where near as powerful as their originals. Magus' clones, however, naturally figure out who they are and that they can never be as powerful as the real Magus/Janus, as Magus/Janus was arguably one of the most powerful beings of the game's history. These Magus clones choose to instead follow their own pathes instead of Magus' singular mindset to find Schala. Gil/Magil, the version of Magus in RD, may or may not have been intended to be the actual last appearance of the 'True Magus', as it was not worked out that Magus would actually be stuck outside the demensions, and all versions of him were actually clones. He would have simply been using a different name as to not tip off Kid as to who she really was before she was ready.


Chrono Cross
More confusion for all! Yay! The two demensions in this game are a similar but false demension and the 'True' timeline that should have been how the universe went before Schala or whatever influence lead Crono to fight Lavos, creating the paradox that split the demensions. The 'home' demension in game is actually the false one created when Kid saved Serge, and the 'alternate' demension is the one that should exist if there was no changes to the timeline.



-Kid. Reborn into both demensions. First into the 'false' demension where she found Serge as a child and saved him from a 'panther demon'. Then reborn again into the actual 'True' demension, where she would grow up and summon Serge to, so he could repair the timelines and merge the demensions back into a single one again, and to free Schala herself. When reborn, she was again found by Lucca and swore vengence on Lynx when he came to kill Lucca, which was explained to be FATE's retaliation for her and her friends breaking time.

-Serge. After being taken to the dead sea, which was a broken timeline that didn't exist as a side-effect of the changes in the true timeline, and during a momentary power outage, Serge was linked as the arbitor that could access the Frozen Flame, an artifact formed from a peice of Lavos. The broken timeline claimed Leena's father as the guardian of it when he went there for whatever reason, and FATE, a computer made by humans in the future to monitor time and became self-aware, claimed Serge's father and transformed him into a feline demi-human and wiped his mind, turning him into Lynx.

-Magus. While not directly in the game, Guile has been confirmed to be this demensions 'Magus Clone', which is why Kid isn't surprised to see him when, if you lose his bet to get an item from Viper Manor, he takes his mask off and shows the fortune teller his face.

-Schala. Not a whole lot I can tell that isn't already known beyond that Schala has long blonde hair now. It's mentioned by an NPC in Trigger that the only reason that the Zeal population has blue/purple hair, is because of their work with magic. Magus clones all have the same blueish hair look as Magus was a great mage, but Schala's power, so it seemed, was stemmed from her pendant. Since Schala sent her pendant with Kid, her power, whatever it was, had no strength and just like worn out hair dye, hers went back to it's original color.

-Ending, Kid, Serge. The picture at the end of the 'cross' ending is a wedding photo. It's left to be assumed that eventually Kid found Serge and they got together. Kid's hair is partially down and partially in a ponytail which has left people to question whether she and Schala merged into one person or if Kid, knowing who she was, became a bit more lady-like by the time they'd found each other and married. Most likely, now that Schala was freed, she took her pendant and returned to her own time roughly and/or perhaps helped start the Guardia kingdom, which came a while later after Zeal's collapse as the first 'King Guardia', based on years, would be at year 1 AD after making generation assumptions from Nadia's father all the way back. At least, that would eventually lead up to Marle, Nadia inhereting the pendant, completing the paradox circle.

:huh: Trying to figure out time travel makes my head hurt... I think the assumption route is hte best way to go... If everything you said is true to the point that the developers ment all of that to happen(magus clones, and luccas mysterious death and all), than it will be really interesting to see where Squarenix would take the next games story, cause now they not only have timelines but also Dementions to deal with, that story will be no peach to write I bet.

Well.. yes and no. The events of Trigger are what caused the split in demensions and the events of Cross put them back into one, so short of some inexplicible event, possibly time crashes and such from now dead demensions, there's only the aspect of time.
I'm not entirely sure of the status of Chrono Brake or any other plans for another Chrono game ever since Brake's U.S. registration expired, while the Japanese registration is still being maintained. Also, there was the possibility that they would make the Chrono games into a continuing series. Similar to how Final Fantasy has lasted for some 15+ games, but with a linking storyline like Trigger and Cross were linked as opposed to FF series(except 10/10-2) were entirely new every time.

Doesn't help that kids these days would look and Trigger and Cross and whine about graphics instead of seeing it's storyline. Hopefully if the remake mod is good, it'll catch on and SquareEnix will decide to make another.

:huh: Well Lavos has been to other planets right, he's a planet hopping parasite if I remember right, so isn't it possible some of the other inhabitants of other planets survived, and that they would want revenge and would see destorying... um whatever the planet CT and CC take place on as a possible solution to killing lavos, this being considered before lavos is actually killed by crono and crew... god time travel is confusing...

Possibly yes but still. I think that by the time someone from the other planet even reaches Earth, it'll be too late anyway. You have to think Lavos destroyed their planet and seeing as how 2300 AD was, imagine how long it took to get everything back together on the other planet.

:huh: Assumming they just didn't fly off to another planet in a space ship you mean? It was obvious that the planet crono and crew were from had space travel when lavos attacked, hell they were in a space station viewing it in the bad ending. And with the dementions merging into one doesn't that mean Magus is whole again?...Time travel makes my head hurt... <_<

With the demensions going back together, one would assume that now the 'real' Magus/Janus would have been released from being stuck outside time/space. As there is most likely not going to be another game anytime soon(yes, I know it's blasphemy), I can't say for sure. By the devs explination of what happened to him, it's a fair guess though. On the same note of if there will be another game or not, one would think that with Schala freed, Magus himself wouldn't have much place in any future games as he would simply return to her upon knowing she's back.

Lavos was a parasite, and as such had no friends. No one cared about him or any of his species. The only thing that did care what happened was FATE. Because of Schala's influence, or whoever you accept as the 'entity' that lead Crono to fight Lavos and thereby altering the timeline which FATE was trying to control to lead up to it's own future, FATE went about trying to ensure that things would evolve a certain way from there. Eliminating Crono and Marle, and later sending the FATE avatar, Lynx, to hunt down Lucca. By eliminating these three, it left no one to know anything about the whole time travel adventure, and the Records of FATE could guide the minds of everyone else from then on.

Further into theories, It was FATE's creation of the El Nido Archipeligo that allowed a port town like Porre to grow into an empire, which lead it to fight a war with Guardia Kingdom. Why the war actually started, or when, is hard to say... If it was intended that Porre would attack Guardia before CT events, then it would have left the leaders of Porre still selfish and greedy. Porre would have had the ability to become said empire long before Crono and Nadia ever came along, which may or may not explain why there are ghostly echos of Crono, Marle and Lucca during events in the Dead Sea in CC, as the Dead Sea was the timeline where things should have been if Crono and the others defeated Lavos. Also, the bell there is Nadia's Bell, which was being put up by the king at the end of CT. If Porre had been able to attack prior to CT times, it would have left Nadia dead as part of the royal family when Guardia was destroyed by Porre, Crono, as a swordsman or simply living in Truce, would have been killed in the fighting, and later that would leave Lucca alive since she isn't a soldier or in any fashion related to Guardia directly, which would mean FATE would have to directly act to eliminate her, which was done using Lynx.

As far as the 1999AD ending, either by failing to kill Lavos or watching it in the future on the computer, there's no mention that I saw of there being any space flight. People lived in domes for some reason or another, and had massive computer systems running things. The exact spot where the people are standing when Lavos wakes up and begins his destruction is in one of the domes. If space travel were possible, there would be no remaining humans after 1999AD.

As for aliens from other planets, Lavos would be little more then a generic spawn-child of the last adult parasite of his species. You can tell there's plenty of 'Lavos' spawns out there, especially near the end when climbing the mountain in the future. Lavos supposedly 'reigns from atop' the mountain, and the paths up have lots of young Lavos'. The only thing that makes "Lavos" special is that was the name given to the baby parasite that came to Earth. Even if there was anyone else comming from space, they wouldn't take revenge for humans killing the local spawn. Even if it was possible to have happened, Lavos' beings bury into the core of a planet, so there could be nothing to do about it.

It just occured to me that Knives might have thought I meant Revenge for Lavos' demise. The event itself didn't matter as it saved the humans. The problem was that when the Time Crash occured due to an experiment Chronopolis, the workers set to making sure time would still lead up to Chonopolis again being created in the future and perhaps saving itself from the Crash happening again. In need of a place to live their lives without effecting the timeline, El Nido was created and the workers in Chonopolis wiped their own minds and moved there. FATE was left to monitor the futures and ensure that it's own existance would still come about, was set to monitor the El Nido area and, through the Records of FATE, ensure that no one on El Nido, the decendants of the Chronopolis workers, ever wanted to leave the islands and affect the future. Crono's changes in time were monitored by FATE and, added with the accidental discovery of El Nido by Porre(which was a port town), there was too many changes to ensure the timeline would progress properly. Lucca's letter to Kid in CC, refers to the events that happened to her friends and herself 'revenge' for what they had done to save their own future.

With all the demension and time hopping that occured, it's kind of hard to keep up with what was meant to happen. Another odd point is how the Masamune became an evil weapon, and how/why Masa and Mune themselves allowed it to happen, though it seems their consiousness may have been 'sleeping' within the sword and that's how it was able to be corrupted during the CC times. Doesn't explain how it ended up on El Nido in the first place as it was a weapon needed during CT times. It would have returned to 600AD with Frog at the end, and what he did with it is whatever. Either way, El Nido was intended for Chronopolis workers only. As no one was supposed to ever realize it existed, FATE probably didn't expect Porre to arrive and use their resources to make the empire. Perhaps since 'the hero' was a Porre legend, Frog lived around there, ect., it probably ended up being taken to El Nido by someone at some point. Why, or when it became evil, is beyond me for the moment.

I know a jumped around a lot this time, but I'm tired.

Whoa man thats really impressive. I feel the need to play radical dreamers and Chrono Cross now just so i can experience all the crazy temporal gear.

But really man, your ability to focus on the big picture and ignore the sheer mindboggling ness of comprehending multiple dimensions and the possibility that an individual is reborn into other dimensials with their fate destined to serve a much higher purpose is mucho impressing. ITs the sort stuff a stoned guy comes up with, but much more meaningful.

Really makes you give alot more thought to karma and rebirth. Are my actions here determined by a higher power? Are my actions going to determine my involvement with fate? ARGHH!!


You briefly mentioned Final Fantasy. Have you ever tried to connect those games? If anyone can piece together the evidence and connect the final fantasy games, its you my broad minded friend...

You need to sell this SPAM as some sort of Anime cartoon...... Most anime's are on odd subjects, so the tackling of Time could be done through visual form.

Karma is a way to look at it, though I'm sure some people would prefer calling it theory of cause and effect or some more complicated way to say the exact same thing.


http://invisionfree.com/forums/Spectral_Wa...p?showtopic=823

My explination on any links between FF games is ^here^, though it may not be what you were looking for.

:huh: Actually I ment about revenge of people from other planets, Lavos travels through space to get to earth, and he is only a spawn at the time, so there must be others out there that have also take up root in other planets, I'd find it possible since there is a alien and a space ship in CC that there is life out there that had space travel and may have encountered another Lavos.
Another question is what did lavos evolve from, was it a human or genetic mishap by another race.
The revenge part was that if lavos encountered a space faring race and destoryed their home planet isn't it possible they would want to eliminate lavos and all its spawns, and the only way to kill a lavos effectively is while its dormant and blowing up a planet would kill lavos I'm sure.
One other question didn't the magic that the characters use stem directly from Lavos?

Revenge - Hard to really consider since you're right. The only way to destroy a Lavos spawn while dormant would involve destroying a planet. At the same time, Lavos arrival on earth was similar to a meteor. How his species can launch themselves into space, let alone control their movement is not explained, nor is how many of these creatures actually exist out there. My guess would be that if anyone wanted to eliminate a Lavos spawn, they would have to wait until Lavos awoke and came to the planet's surface, simply because for anyone to want revenge for destruction of their own planet, they wouldn't neccessarily want to destroy planets on their own just to wipe out the creature, as then they wouldn't be any better then the creatures.

Of course, that's assuming that such space-faring race wasn't ruthless enough to use planet-destroying weapons, should they exist, on a planet. Starky was there in CC only because his ship crashed and didn't show any sign of knowing about Lavos or such creatures prior to his joining the group.

Lavos Origin - Lavos is an alien creature that feeds off resources on a planetary scale. As there is mention that the spawns will leave the planet and find new ones to grow, make more spawns and so on, the only thing that's certain is that "Lavos" is just a spawn from one of these creatures that had awoken on another planet, made spawns, and sent them off to find their own worlds to feed on. As the process takes an extremely long time - judging by that Lavos fell to the planet in 65 billion BC, and didn't wake up until 1999 AD, it wouldn't be possible for Lavos to be at all related to the humans. Also, it's mentioned a few times that the only reason humans evolved is due to the influence of Lavos. Most likely, that wasn't exactly true, per sey...

In CT, 65 billion BC, humans are scattered tribes with tiny villages, that are fighting the Reptites. When Lavos fell to earth, he landed directly on the Reptite's city which is most likely what was meant by "Lavos' influence". The reptites would more then likely destroyed the humans sooner or later, as there was only one remaining village(Ayla's) by the time Lavos actually arrived. The destruction of the Reptite's lair was most likely the end of their entire race, allowing humans to thrive.

Another thing that comes to mind which is only mildly related is that during the subquest for Robo at the 'origin of machines', that is to say the place he was made, the corrupted Mother Brain of Robo's series of robots claims that the planet could sustain Lavos and it's spawns if humans weren't around, so perhaps some planets simply have these little creatures on them and not all of them are forced to find their own planets.

Last thing to pop into my head at the moment was the creature that actually 'is' Lavos. The last actual boss of CT, the humanoid and the the two bits. The creature part of Lavos seems to be little more then a living ship in which this humanoid lives. Makes one wonder if things like Schala being merged with Lavos wasn't an uncommon thing. Perhaps these humanoids were aliens that were merged with the creature. Schala's case may have been more special considering her great magical power which may have had to do partially with time already as her pendant was capable of rewinding time on it's own(as seen with Kid).

It's just something I'm thinking about since there's case that Schala was merged with a Lavos spawn, not actually Lavos itself, and perhaps happened because that spawn didn't have a humanoid merged with it already.


Magic - This is a little wonky, but I'll take a swing at it. Magic itself is supposed to be just a force that exists for those who understand how to weild it. Spekkio at the End of Time tells Crono and the others with him, that they have the potential to use it as well and in a simplified method, he shows them how.

Magic and the Kingdom of Zeal - While magic is a basic force, the the inhabitants of Zeal constantly studied it, especially when they learned about Lavos, either through old legend or some other method passed down from prehistoric times. Once they learned of Lavos, they built the Mammon Machine, which was essentially a way for them to tap Lavos' power. Becoming arrogant and superior, they used the machine to tear their kingdom out of the ground and float it above the surface. Their constant exposure to Lavos' power and complete dependancy on it, is what altered their hair colors.

If I didn't explain what you meant, I'll try again.

According to this site, Schala Zeal
The Enlighten ones dyed their hairs to show their superiority to the Earthbound ones.
But not through magic (not mentioned anyway), I always thought they used herbs and such to dye their hair. And never through Magic…

I find it odd though, that Schala is blond but Janus has this waterfall colour.
And you never really get to know anything about their father, The King of Zeal (only minor things).

Oh yea… just thought of something. When you travel back and fourth through the timelines here and there… wouldn’t it just be logical if you met yourself (and your party) from previous adventures/quests in that timeline.

But on the other, the time is always going forward. So if you’ve done something (for instance) in 600 AD and return later to that time age, you would be located (in time speaking) AFTER the quest/event (or whatever you did) once you return there.
So therefore you can’t meet your previous… YOU.

Gah… that was a bit fuzzy. I should go to bed.

:huh: In a sense it might be possible to meet your self I suppose, but every time you travel back in time you creat a divergent time period just by being there, so in a sence its easier to think of time as lvs instead of one horizontal line, every time they changed time they jumped to a new lv, and it also apeared in the game that they didn't have complete control over their time travel and were forced to still follow the movement of time to a point where time still proceeded in each period allowing them to only go back a equal distance from where they started.. thats one way of looking at it I suppose.... okay what i said probably didn't make any sense... figuring out time travel makes my head hurt...

is it possible that Magus when he recolessed it was in hte darkages, and he would be the one to start the gaurdia line.

I sorta know what you mean. Did magus actually create that
period just by being there. JEeeez, i mean this is some complex stuff.

I think time travel was well explained by Doc in Back to the Future. When time is changed, a divergent time stream is created, so you can go back and time stays the same, but you go forward and you are seeing the divergent time streams future. How is it that you would travel to a completly different stream all together?

:huh: Actually what you said was what I ment about the split times, everything you change would become a lvl of time or demention and the epoch really just hops along the lvls to a desired point in time.... Excuse me I don't make sense, I'm gonna go hit myself with a bag of pennies now to see If I can jog any of that logic I got stored some where in my head loose.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. You would still be traveling through time, but instead you would be crossing dimensions as well because of the fact that you changed the past so much. The Epoch was just a tool to travel through time, much like Kid's pendant was a tool to cross the dimensions, Another World and Home World, in Chrono Cross.

Burn! Bobonga!

I've read that site a while back myself. The reason I stated that it was Lavos' power eminating through the Mammon Machine, was that it was the original belief behind it. I've seen it pop up so often that it was magic and so rare that it was simple dye. Dye would make a bit more sense, but at the same time since the people in the kingdom were dependant on Lavos, it had it's own chance to be right. I've never had the manual, nor found another place to go into their hair color. All I know off hand was that an npc mentions their hair. I've been working my way through CT again to figure out what was said. Sorry if I was wrong and thanks bunches if you caught me on it.

As for Schala being blonde and Janus being waterfall color, as far as I know Janus/Magus never was seen after CT events. Perhaps he simply kept dying his hair when in 600AD growing up, as he always kept that air of superiority, even when helping Crono. I'll have to look into that since I'm curious now.

I think the only mention of King Zeal was simply to have a reason for the Queen's actions. I.E. it's said that once the King died, she started to change, ect. Beyond that, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of reason to go into the King's life story.


Anyway,

Time did move with them an equal amount to show the changes happening when they altered something. Since time moved in that fashion still, they wouldn't be able to control their return well enough because for them to leave one time line and return, they obviously had to have left so their former selves wouldn't be there when they returned. If they had the ability to move back a few minutes, that would be a different story I suppose. From what I can tell though, it wasn't that new timelines started to form, but that the one timeline kept being rewritten.

Eventually when the events led up to Lavos actually waking up and being destroyed, it completed the paradox circle and split time into seperate lines and demensions because for that event to even come about, certain things had to happen in the past - lead up to Crono coming along - then those past events getting rewritten yet again. Something had to happen to make them go back and change what happened, yet the first thing still had to have happened for them to ever go back to change it. I believe it was that they destroyed Lavos the first time that created the whole paradox. If they were jumping through different demensions or levels, the changes made in one wouldn't exactly end up in all of them as you were always able to hop back, forth, and to the very end of time. At the same time, it could also have been due to the Time Crash that happened in the future beyond CT's time, that caused everything to change yet again and lead to CC's events. It was later in two of those split demensions that Serge came along and pulled them all back into one merged line.

Side note: Even in Back to the Future, there was only the one timeline. Marty had to actually go back and stop himself from changing it accidently. At least that's how I've been looking at it. Similar to a choose-your-own-adventure book, if you chose to do something, there were other choices but as that isn't what happened, the chapters of the book pertaining to if you chose to do that, simply don't exist. Then when you go back and re-read the book and choose the options you didn't before, that first line of events simply never happened as they were over written by the events that your choice did lead to.

Oddly enough, I'm not tired enough to think about this clearly :P I'll try back later.

:huh: do you have any explanation as to the ghost of crono marle and lucca, is it possible they were revived or recollessed when the demensions merged again.
I always find demensions interesting, but at the same time trying to figure them out just gives me a headache.

Arghh. Now a timeline is easy to understand. But multiple dimensions... GAH!
It boggles the mind. I do hope that in some dimension their is a me, who travels the world enacting justice on evil doers with a swift left hook.

:huh: well according to this thread if I comprehend it right, a demension couldn't exist unless some one has already created a paradox, in which point the universe would blow up and split into muliple demensions, and if that happened I'm sure somewhere your a super hero or side kick woop'n bad guy arse, which is something I think we all want to do I guess.

The Ghosts are a little tricky.

A shortened version is this: CT happens, hundreds of years later, Chronopolis was formed, Time Crash sends the city back to the past where FATE creates the El Nido Arch., which changes timeline and allows Porre - a simple port town in CT- to come across and use the resources of El Nido to grow into an empire that for some reason or another, rose up and destroyed the Kingdom of Guardia.

It's hard to really know what of CT's events could have happend since it's not said exactly when Porre found El Nido. There's two ways to look at it:

1 - Because of FATE creating El Nido continent/archipeligo to give the workers of Chronopolis a place to live out their lives without effecting the history. If Porre found this new land before the events of CT could happen, then Porre would have grown and destroyed Guardia before Crono and the others ever started. Crono would die in the fighting most certainly, and Marle would have died as a member of the Royal family. Lucca, seperated from the fighting, would have been alive to take in the children left without parents after the war. This idea is a little wonky though because Lucca recognized Schala/Marle's pendant when she found the baby Kid, and if CT never happened, she wouldn't have met Schala OR Marle and never seen the pendant or understood it's power.

2 - Porre found El Nido shortly after CT's events. It grew and destroyed Guardia, which would again leave Crono and Marle dead, Lucca again was seperated and would have found Kid and started her orphanage. This is a bit more plausible since it would explain more how Lucca would have figured any of it out when finding Kid with the pendant, or in her letter to Kid in CC, expecting Janus to have found her.

Through either of these events, time was altered entirely because of FATE creating El Nido and while FATE may have been able to keep people from wanting to leave the islands, it wasn't able to keep Porre from finding it. Again time was broken because it was CT events that led up to Lucca later designing the FATE computer system, but then when Chronopolis was sent back in time, and as I said, FATE created El Nido, Porre found it, ect.

The ghosts of those three aren't exactly ghosts so much as 'echos' from a broken timeline. That they're children is anyone's guess I suppose or perhaps it was that because of Porre, they were killed young. Either way, since all time events for the line that was broken were centered around those three, they're the ones that are left there. Since they're just echos they don't seem to have any actual sentience. That is to say, they aren't spirits or anything that's consiously moving around. I'm honestly not sure what would happen to these echos once the time lines were put back into one since the dead sea would no longer exist which is where these three ghosts were linked. I would assume that they simply would no longer exist, but it's hard to say really how time went back together until they make a sequel and decide on a story for it.

Crono, Marle(Nadia), and Lucca are all dead no matter how you look at it. For them to still be alive, Porre could never have become an empire and destroy Guardia. For that to not happen, FATE would not have been allowed to make El Nido. Time Crash couldn't have occured, and the city itself couldn't have been made. But since Chronopolis was made based on Lucca's theories and written works, CT had to have happened and lead up to the future where Chronopolis was created, all so that it could go back in time during the Crash which, through the actions of FATE and El Nido, allowed Kid, Clone of Schala, and Serge, a descendant of one of the Chronopolis workers, to bring it all back together.



I don't have a image for this off hand, but think of the time lines like this
______======________


It goes as a single straight line. Even when Crono was going through time and making little changes, he was still only going back and forth on that same on-going line. Then after the events of CT, time actually breaks into new, seperate lines with all these possibilities that could have occured between the time CT ended, to where CC ended as at the end of CC('good' ending) time and space is merged back into a single timeline. I'm fairly certain there's some timelines made by people on the net out there if anyone feels like looking to get a better idea, but since a lot of events are assumed from the devs, or altered later by some other event, it's hard to make a perfect timeline of it.

I get a headache too if you think about it too much so no worries. It gets difficult to keep track of which events had to happen, so that something else could happen, but still know which events still 'happened' but were overwritten by something else, yet still had to happen for any of this to happen, ect.

Whee!

Okay, now I'm confused. I thought that Chronopolis == Dinopolis.

Lucca builds Chronopolis which is sent through to the past, right? Well, if Porre found El Nido before CT's events, Chronopolis would never be created, right? Thus, Dinopolis would remain nothing because the humans wiped out Azala's army. Unfortunately, this means that Dinopolis would not become Chronopolis.

On the other hand, if Porre found El Nido AFTER CT's events, Chronopolis would have been created, the CC events would happen, and Chronopolis would have been sent back in time and become Dinopolis.

Of course, this causes another problem. If it became Dinopolis, Crono would have defeated Azala AFTER Dinopolis appeared because if he defeated Azala BEFORE it appeared, Dinopolis wouldn't have become "Dino"-polis.

This leads to yet another problem. If it isn't "Dino"-polis, does Dinopolis cease to exist, thus erasing Chronopolis from existence since technically it was Dinopolis in the past? It could also be found by Porre BEFORE CT's events, thus erasing CT's events, thus Dinopolis becomes Dinopolis and Azala's army would have eradicated the humans. If this is the case, Dinopolis doesn't become Chronopolis, CC's events don't happen and Lavos destroys the world. If CT's events don't even happen then Lavos destroys the world sooner.

Sorry if that stuff makes no sense. :P I'm by no means, in any timestream or dimension, an expert.


*Wow! Now, I know why the Chrono Compendium has so many different sections!*

Dinopolis was called to the same demension supposedly by the planet itself to offset the arrival of Chronopolis in the past because of the Time Crash. It was called from a split "what if Lavos didn't fall" demension where the reptites survived and wiped out the humans. Two different cities that aren't related exactly, just to point out that humans aren't exactly meant to be the natural race on the planet as they don't coexist with nature, but rather alter their surroundings to suit them. The reptite's 'city' was an island, Chronopolis was a man-made city of technology and entirely unnatural. They aren't linked as both are from seperate demensions, balance was just thrown off when Chronopolis was thrown back in time and FATE started creating El Nido.

Regardless of any events of CT, Lavos still came down on top of the reptite fortress so CT events actually had nothing to do with humans surviving and reptite's dying out, effectively ending their race. It wouldn't exactly matter that they went to defeat Azala, as she would simply have been crushed with everything else.

CC's events were meant to happen those 20 years after CT, so that would mean that between 1000AD and 1020AD is when Porre was able to get the resources to eliminate Guardia's kingdom. Just doesn't seem like that would have been enough time to expand a small port town to any significant degree.

So the two "cities" aren't necessarily the same? Thanks for clearing that up.

I agree with your point. 20 years doesn't seem like a long enough period. However, the Porre soldiers occupied El Nido before defeating Guardia, right? Or do I have my events mixed up yet again? :P

:huh: Some of it seems a little morally odd too, wasn't Cyrus the hero of gaurdia and porre barried in porre castle, you'd think that the porre people would hold some respect and alligence to Gaurdia.. but eh.

So robo is deleted, crono and marle are killed by porre, Frog dies of old age, Lucca is killed by lynx, and Magus is the only survivor.. for such a colorful game CC is sure morbid, maybe thats why they had so many characters cause they were trying to make up for killing the original Chrono crew.

Heh maybe when they finally make another Chrono game they'll kill all the CC characters and bring back the original CT crew..

The only ones actually killed was Crono, Marle and later on Lucca. Robo didn't really exist as a robot as he did in CT, at least as far as you see. The prometheous circuit in FATE at least had a copy of Robo's personality to make that circuit sentient beyond just being another program running. Robo could very well have existed or still does in the far future since, as a robot, he can't actually 'die'.
Frog did die of old age, but he lived his life actually in Guardia instead of in his hole in the ground, feeling sorry for himself.

I'd say they worked in more characters for CC to give more variety for those who played differently and those working twards different endings. Such as those evil ones who chose not to help Kid when she was poisoned, would get access to Glenn.

For them to bring back the CT characters, they would have to undo the events of CC and the future Time Crash so that there would be no one able to have killed them in the first place. If they played with time enough now that CC put everything back together, I suppose you could again run into Frog or whoever else, even Crono, Marle and Lucca before they were killed. I suppose technically they could have something similar to the use of the time egg in CT happen and remove Crono, Marle and Lucca elsewhere so they don't actually die. At least they could claim that's why you never see Lucca's body when Lynx attacked the orphanage. It's a stretch though.



Yeah, Porre would have had to occupy El Nido first to gain access to said resources. Good point.


The way to look at the two cities, Dinopolis and Chronopolis would be like each races crowning achievement. The reptite's was a floating tower and Chronopolis was a city controlled by a super computer. The computer, FATE, won the fight by sealing the reptite's god and splitting it into seperate entities - the dragons - and in the same stroke, FATE disabled the reptite's tower, which crashed into the sea and later became known to the people as Sky Dragon Isle.

The dragon's later used the fact that Serge was able to access the frozen flame to release the seal on them, which allows the Sky Dragon Island to regain it's power and float. I think it's around this point in CC where it actually goes into that the floating tower is Dinopolis. Been a while since I played through CC.


I've been thinking about the likelyhood of another Chrono game, and I'm just not seeing where they'd go from there. CT left Schala's fate to be uncovered for RD and CC, and since the demensions were merged back into one, there's no reason to toy with something that isn't there. I think short of now going back to explain Magus/Janus's fate, there isn't much for them to go on which may be why they let the registration of the Chrono Brake name expire in the states. They probably have some small idea in the works though for them to at least have the name in Japan.

:huh: What about explaining the origins of the original Lavos, I could sure see a game about that. It would also have to take place in the future to allow space travel. They could do the whole game about hunting down and killing all the lavoses or about one big lavos race attack, or maybe that genentic splicing thing you talked about, it could produce of a race of intelligent and powerhungry half breed lavoses... the keyword being lavos, thats what the game would have to revolve around for the story to continue, which I pray it does.

I can see your point about space travel, but the problem with that idea is that the Lavos of CT crashed onto Ayla's planet millions of B.C. years ago, creating a very long record of history of the lavoses to keep, especially if that Lavos wasn't the original. It's a good idea, but it needs a bit of work.

The Magus/Janus idea would be good. There is so much left unexplained in the games, even when you piece together every possible thing between the 3 games. Since he was known as Janus in 12000 B.C. (Dark Ages), there could be a story regarding his history. It could basically become CT+RD+CC where Magus/Janus is the main character. This could attempt to explain the RD scene where Riddel sees Magil and finds that he is her long lost love, Gilbert. It could also resolve an old question: are Guile and Magus the same (for sure!!!)? We can only make educated guesses that receive no answers regarding this hot topic. I can't really expand on this due to the lack of knowledge. As far as we know, he existed in 12000 B.C. up through 2300 A.D. (due to the CT events). We don't know anything about his past or future in CT, and there is no easy-to-see hint in CC regarding that Guile IS Magus. In RD, we know that Magil is Magus because of the description of his actions and role ("shadow-walker", anybody?). How did he become a shadow-walker and when in the world was he involved with Riddel, especially if he was originally Janus in 12000 B.C. ?

Too many questions, right? :P

:huh: Didn't some of Kids posts answer these questions?

The long history of lavos just means it would be more of a epic that would span more than one game, or at least a very long one. Other than being a parasite, we don't paraticularly know what Lavos is, or was it even intelligent, or was it acting on a programed instinct. Was the outer form of Lavos just a big space ship for the being inside?

I considered that too, but from all the players I've talked to, most don't even think about the fact that Lavos was just a spawn of a previous creature. I would assume Square had no real plans to explain Lavos' parasitic race, or there would have been more backstory on it's race as a whole, not just specifically all about the one that landed on earth.
I would also assume that Crono killing Lavos was a fluke in the 'system' that Lavos works in, and only a few people would even know when this creature landed on their planet considering how quickly it can dig in.

What Lavos is, is a little hard to tell. It seems to be a living creature that can travel through space with ease. At the same time, during the boss fights, you break through the 'shell' and fight a larger thing that looks like it's actually part of the shell, and beyond that was another being inside. It could be like a giant organic ship, or it could be similar to Schala's case where a humanoid was totally merged with Lavos - Lavos actually being that second boss after the shell and the humanoid was the 3rd small creature - and bent on destruction as Schala's mind was becoming.


Some of my posts had answers but it was flat out said that when making RD and especially CC, that the devs just kind of assumed things and expected players to assume the same to a degree. Since they actually had some form of 'script' on how the universe was supposed to play out, they assumed a little too much, because here we are now, years later, with questions. I honestly don't expect many people to accept anything I say as true because it's second hand information. That is to say that since they didn't hear it themselves, they'll always look at such information with suspicion. Most likely anyone that reads any of this will go back through the games and see where things brought up here fit in with the game and come back with their own questions and answers.




RD, Riddle and the 'shadow-walker' thing. Radical Dreamers, like the rest of the Chrono series, has multiple endings, but only one 'good' ending that the game is based on. Instead of simply being endings, the game made extra scenerios to read through. One of these involves Magil/Gil and Riddle. Just like in CT and CC, these aren't actually intended to be anything more then "Easter Eggs". Just some new ways to play for added replayability.

:huh: Ya know I bet if ya jogged some of the Devs about Lavoses beggings they might actually be able to work on a story, the only thing left for them to try is space travel afterall.

Space travel is a bit overdone though.

:huh: well it seems like the only big vehicle thing left for CT to do, unless I'm missing some other epic travel aspect. Sides scifi and space never gets old, your just saying that cause of STarOcean. how else would they get in contact with all the Lavos creatures out there, it could add new races, starkys race could be a part of it.

You think that creature inside lavos might have been azala, he could have gotten absorbed like schala... or he could have just been distintigrated when lavos fell.

Maybe but also put the posiblility of other creatures Lavos may have absorbed .. <_< and if he doesn't absord then all the people he killed if he was real i want him to land on Englind(is that how you spell it?) because I hate how they talk they talk like rich people and I hate people who are richer than me!

Now, now, Crotus. You shouldn't hate people you don't know. Besides, they don't talk like they are rich. It's just their natural accent. If you slobbered constantly when you spoke, you wouldn't want people to say they hate you, right? :lol:

I guess.....But i still dont like there acsent <_<

Knives, sure space never gets old, but that's what makes it get old. You can only think up so much before it starts to resemble storylines from other games, tv, ect. So far, the Chrono series has worked with time and demensions, which is rare by itself, but they worked in the concept of a temporal paradox and they've done it in a way that wasn't absurd or couldn't be explained. Most games, tv, or movies I've seen that deal with time time or demensional travel, do it with an idea about as complex as a man soiling himself while standing on a hill which sends him into the past. If it got too complicated, then most people - especially today - wouldn't bother thinking about it, let alone the program being so in-depth that years later people still talk about it.

Space is too simple to do which just doesn't sit right with how the Chrono series is. At the same time, the fact that the game has such a following to it for it's quality in storyline is probably why they're having trouble making another. For a short while they were wanting to make a full continuing series, but it seems they just can't find an angle to run with that would be as original as the first 2(3 with RD).


Crotus, don't hate a place you can't spell.

:huh: what do you suppose they ment by Chrono Break, which would have been the title of the third game. Could it have been about the time crash I wonder? Hey did the CC developers ever explain anything behind the story of the Sphinx?

I don't know :huh:

In CT there is one charator that can meet itself, Robo.
When you help Fiona restore the forest Robo leaves your pary, when you get him back and go to the dark ages he is there planting trees.
Shouldn't that cause a paradox?