Just wondering what everyone thinks about the sponsorship scandal as it comes to light in the Auditor General's report... quite obviously, somebody was very consciously making the decision to do this, but how high up was the decision made, and who knew about it?

The question isn't whether Liberal party supporters got contracts worth many thousands of dollars to do nothing... they did. The question IS, did they get a return on their investments made prior to the last election? "Give us $55,000 to buy TV ads depicting the Canadian Alliance as just one shade shy of Facists, and when we're in control of the government purse, we'll give you back your $55,000, plus interest..." Pretty creative fundraising... since you can't, as the party in power, use government money on a campaign, use private money that you then reimburse with public money for faux reports and services.

The way I see it, it boils down to one big question: Did Paul Martin know what was happening? He says no, and that's entirely believable. He was in charge of BILLIONS of dollars in expenditures, and there's no reason to suggest that he knew where every cent went once it was disbursed to various ministries. But $100,000,000 is a lot of money to go unaccounted for. So if he DIDN'T know, he should have. And if he DID know, he needs to be at the very least removed from the government benches.

To whit: If he KNEW, he's a liar and a borderline criminal. If he DIDN'T know, he was a piss poor Finance Minister, and why should we think he'll be anything else in a MORE senior position?

And even IF he didn't know, this is one more on a long list of reasons why the Liberals need to spend a term on the Opposition benches instead of the government side... it's gotten so bad, that there's institutional rot in the party, and they obviously view MY tax dollars as rightfully THEIRS. Which they are most certainly NOT.

Sybilla

move this to the Politics section

It shows that the Chretien Administration was certainly dysfunctional.

Kudos to Martin for at least appearing to want to allow a full investigation to this.

My feeling is that Martin knew nothing. He should have known, but it is quite possible that Chretien cut Martin out of some key functions and hid information from him, as the two did not have a very good relationship.

Either way, Martin should have known. The key questions are, did he know? If not, why didn't he know?

Hopefully the inquiry will answer these and other questions. If criminal activities occurred, I want people charged, up to and including Chretien.

On a personal level, I liked Chretien. But if he knew about this, and played a roll in this massive fraud, he should go to jail along with the rest of the co-conspirators.

Ironic that the media tried in vain to crucify Mulroney, and failed. Now that they have a far more obvious target in Chretien and possibly Martin, they aren't doing anything.

Another example of the media failing to do its job...

Good Point Bweezy

In the last three weeks we see the media focusing in my opinion, on events very inconsistently.

Don Cherry
Janet Jackson
Sponsorship Scandal
dog poisoning scandal in Toronto

With respect to the scandal I have not really followed all the details but I find it very hard to believe that he had no idea what was going on. I think that he was aware of it to a certain extent t. When he was ostracized by Cretien I think it was a perfect opportunity for him to duck the issue if it came up after his appointment.

Good for him to call an inquiry. It will likely prove that he was not involved. Because if he was, two words "political suicide"

Micon

And now the letter has been found, and he's in the deep stuff...

National Post

Sigh.

They'll get out of it, they always do. And they'll win the next election.

The Liberal government would have to almost kill a guy before they'd get thrown out.

And an important person at that, not someone that no one would miss.

The Post has been on this like white on rice since the start.

-Dunefish

The article you link to is not the smoking gun you make it out to be.

It states that a bureaucrat wrote to Martin in February, 2002, three months before he was fired from his position as Finance Minister, asking him to investigate corruption allegations.

While there is proof the letter was received by Martin's office, there is no proof that Martin ever saw the letter.

Further, the article states that there was much speculation of corruption at that time, which caused the auditor to be appointed to investigate the mess in the first place.

The article shows that people close to Martin received a letter asking for an investigation, and at around the same time, an auditor was appointed to investigate.

It doesn't implicate Martin into this in the least. All it suggests is that he was working with a blindfold on. It doesn't lead to the conclusion he is corrupt.

I'm not saying this is good. But it is not as bad some make it out to be. Put another way, he wasn't willfully corrupt, just ignorant.

Don't get me wrong - I don't support Martin's policies or his party. However, I'm not ready to lynch the man until I see some supportable evidence that he was aware of what was going on. The article you supplied us does nothing to indicate that Martin knew anything. All he did was hear rumours, and as a member of Cabinet, voted in favour of having an auditor investigate the allegations.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be turfed from office for this. Unless there was a conspiracy to keep him in the dark, he probably should have known something was up. However, it is important to state that there is no evidence he committed a crime.

And as for my contention that the media isn't doing its job - they spent years accusing Mulroney of corruption to no avail. Yet, just as their failed hatchet job on Mulroney was being dismantled, there was real corruption going on on parliament hill, and no one was there to bother adequately investigating it while it was still going on.

I should also mention that the opposition should have known about this too. This also shows us that we elected a second rate opposition who couldn't find a scandal in progress if it bit them in the collective backside. The time for the opposition to be asking tough questions was 2002, not 2004.

Lastly, if there was a viable national alternative to the Liberals, they would have been turfed by now. However, there hasn't been a viable national alternative for quite some time.

With the divisive Harper ready to lead the Conservatives, I don't see that national alternative appearing on the right. With Harper at the helm, the Conservatives can kiss Most of Ontario, and all of Quebec and the maritimes goodbye. I'd also suggest that Mr. Harper, while immensely popular in BC and Alberta and the rural bible belt of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, will also alienate urban voters in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and parts of Vancouver, thereby furtehr undermining his ability to get enough seats to form a government.

On the left, with the Green Party at 5% in the polls and slicing into the NDP's support base, I don't see the NDP getting strong enough to at least slice the Liberals into a minority position.

As such, you are correct - the Liberals should be safe to govern uncontested for another four years.

Well, none of this really matters, we all know, the libs will live to see a majority government in the may. However, what I am finding interesting, is that Chretien supporters are now threating Martin. Or @ least, that's what I got out of this.

Chretien's friends don't like Martin.


If this is the case, than maybe, the libs might be bumped down to a minority govt. However, it's still gonna takes lots of work. Oh yeah, and Paul using Trudeau's just watch me quote, bunch of shit if you ask me, all he wants is to be PM. And quite frankly, Martin isn't half the man Trudeau was. Personally, I hoping that maybe somebody will jump on this, the conservatives can't, they're in a leadership race, and I dunno about Layton, I don't think he's yelling hard enough.

This is the kind of thing that Bush would get roasted for. "See! His underlings make all the decisions! He's stoopid!"

I'd almost rather have a corrupt PM than an inept one. At least we're used to corruption.

As for Martin using Trudeau's "Just watch me..."

Martin must have a pretty high opinion of himself if he thinks this is as important as the War Measures Act.

-Dunefish

I disagree. Bush has been allowing his underlings to do his dirty work for him all along. The CIA intelligence on WMD's, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld making key international speeches for him. The man has done surprisingly little on his own. He hasn't been called stupid on that basis. In fact, getting Colin Powell to help him is the smartest thing he could have ever done.

The only reason why people think he is stupid is because he was a major league drug addict in the 70's who scraped through university with a C average.

As for Martin's tough talk - I think it is necessary. Corruption is not acceptable. I am glad he is at least appearing to take a hard line. (Time will tell exactly how hard that line really is).

I wish I could get a C at the Harvard Business School.

-Dunefish

(After serving my time with the National Guard)

What makes you think you can't?

Money and talent. :P

-Dunefish

Maybe Money might be an issue. From what I've seen here, talent isn't -you're plenty smart enough.

Bweezy is right. The letter is not the smoking gun. The definite lawyer coming out. Again they only asked him to look into it. He might have been fired from his portfolio before he had a chance to look into it. right.

honestly....Martin looks absolutely pissed off. I don't think the man took acting lessons, so I am inclined to believe that he aws most definetly unaware that it was actually going on. I'm sure he heard rumours, but only Gullible people take rumours seriously without evidence, and there probably wasn't much if any at the time.

I get pissedd off when I'm pulled over for going 50 through a playground zone I wasn't aware was there... but, in the words of the Calgary Police Service, "Ignorance is no excuse. You should have been paying attention". Ditto to the guy who was in charge of the country's purse-strings. Did he know? Probably not... I don't think he's a criminal (just a tax evader). But he SHOULD have known, which made him an incompetant Minister of Finance, and I have no reason to believe that he will be a BETTER than incompetant PM. If you can't do your job properly, and then you take your BOSS' job, the odds of you doing a good job are somewhat slim.

Sybilla

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/14/poll040214

Voter support plunged in most areas of Canada, with the exception really of Atlantic Canada.

The Conservatives sit at a 24% approval rate, and the NDP are up to 18%

THe NDP just need to push a little harder and pass those pesky Conservatives.

I do not really follow polls cause i don't care what people say,they are not accurate.Like here in Quebec,they take a poll of 1000 people...then use that and say well the PQ support is down... but what if out of those 1000 people...most are not PQ supports...of course the PQ's numbers will look down. Maybe if they went into the next 1000...and most are PQ supporters...then it will say PQ support is up...it is all bullshit.... to get an accutrate count of whether support is down or not...you have to takes everyone's vote. Not only a 1000 or so out of the whole province.

Martin has resolved to eliminate the "democratic deficit."

I think that's going to be tricky considering the Liberals ARE the democratic deficit.

The front page of the Post today was about how Martin is going to punish the people who caused this but it also says:

"'Some ministers are very concerned about the repercussions of this on Quebec -- the perception this will be interpreted as another slight or a bashing of Quebec, so [not punishing them] is a consideration,' said an insider."

They want to wait until the full inquiry is done in, oh say, a year or two. By then the public's furor will have subsided and those responsible will get cushy postings in Scandinavia or just a fat government pension. All because people are afraid of "slighting" Quebec. That's like not punishing a killer because it might offend his ethnic group, and cost votes.

-Dunefish

That's a load of anti-Quebec rhetoric fabricated by the Post. The fact is that the region that has punished the Liberals the most over this whole fiasco is Quebec. The Liberals have sunk in the polls faster and farther in Quebec than in any other region.

This scandal makes Quebec look foolish, as it makes it look like Quebeckers can be bought. Quebeckers are upset, and rightfully so.

As such, the suicidal approach to take would be for the Liberals to not do anything - Quebeckers, just like everyone else, want to see heads roll.

So much for the "Quebec Conspiracy" whereby no one would be punished...

Heads are starting to roll.

I'll give you the whole thing...

National Post

I don't know who the "insider" is but to accuse the Post of fabrication rather than simply bias is pretty bold. It's a paper that leans right, true, but I've never heard anybody accuse them of making stuff up simply because they don't agree with it.

I never said that the punishment wouldn't come, I just laid out what these people would like to happen. And even the fact that there are people like this advising Martin is a cause for concern for me. "It might make Quebec Liberals look bad." Well, duh, being part of a group that just stole $100 million dollars tends to do that.

A bit of advice for federal Quebec Liberals: make like rats and desert the sinking steamship.

-Dunefish

The fact that the NP leans right has nothing to do with it. They, like the Sun chain of newspapers, are far too prone at printing outlandish stories, making outlandish accusations, that never seem to pan out. When that happens too often, I lose faith in the particular media outlet. Yellow journalism may be profitable, but it doesn't particularly inform the public nor does it do much for the reputation of any particular newspaper.

On the other hand, I would never accuse the far right National Revue of fabrication. They may lean right, but their track record indicates to me that they don't print stories without proper investigation.

The NP could learn a thing or two from them.

ooo...Post bashing, I want in :P

screw you leonard asper!

It's not the Post I am bashing. In fact, as a Winnipeger, I respect the Aspers - they are very loyal to a city I love and choose to call home. I just don't agree with the Post's journalistic methods, which seem to lack integrity.

yeah, but the post's (and other canwest newspapers) "journalistic methods" are imposed on them by the aspers.

I guess I'm the only one who will say it.

I love the Aspers. Buncha sharp guys. I miss Izzy's comments on Isreal every now and then. David's had some good ones in there too, but Izzy always seemed to know exactly what I was thinking on that whole Mid-East situation. And he never called them "suicide bombers" but rather "homicide bombers."

The Post has raised the level of debate in this country and challenged the left's dominance of the newspaper business.

-Dunefish

I don't know about other places in Canada, but here in toronto pretty much all the major newspapers (national post, globe and mail, toronto sun), all lean right, while the toronto star is centrist.....I'm not seeing the left dominance...

In Winnipeg, the editorial boards of the two major dailies lean right. The Winnipeg Sun overwhelmingly so. The Free Press leans right. Traditionally, it was the city's Liberal newspaper (back in the 30's). They have one token left wing editorialist, two token right wingers, and a few liberals thrown into the mix. However, when push comes to shove, the editorial board will favour the right (they supported Mulroney ardently, as well as Filmon).

However, whether the media leans "left" or "right" depends on really on your own personal views.

I can say though, with great certainty, that few major dailies in Canada support the NDP. You have many that are Liberal or Conservative, but few, if any, that have editorial boards that support the NDP. This is not surprising, as newspapers are businesses, and the editorial space is reserved for the proprieter of the newspaper. Not surprisingly, they'll support a more business friendly set of ideals, and will therefore tend to lean right.

Given the fact that no newspaper that I know of actively support's the NDP, I've always argued that the editorial boards of newspapers are therefore inherently leaning to the right.

I think what Dunefish is suggesting is that the National Post shifted the media further to the Right (which is odd, as the Aspers are die hard Liberals). The NP is more likely to openly support the rabid and far-right conseratism that is native to Alberta, as opposed to the more tepid "Red Tory" conservatism popular in the East.

really?...wow, never could have assumed that one

Izzy was Manitoba Liberal Leader in the 1970's.

that's so weird...I never would have thought they were liberal

Just so.

The reason the Post is to the right is because it was started by Conrad Black, not the Aspers.

It's too bad Lord Black is in so much trouble, he had some good papers.
(London Telegraph, Jerusalem Post, Chigago Sun-Times)

-Dunefish

Also, by circulation the Globe and the Star just destroy the Post and the Sun.

The Sun chain is what you read on the bus or when you're just looking for the broad strokes of a story.

The Globe is a dreary mess and the Star is pretty Toronto-centric.

The Post is where you go if you want to see the Liberals portrayed as evil, money wasting cheats...or the truth as I call it. ;)

-Dunefish

We have a a scandal unravelling whereby our government misused over 100 million dollars of taxpayer money in order to line the pockets of businesses that were friendly to the Liberal party. This huge breach of public trust amounts to fraud and corruption the likes of which this nation has not seen since the CPR scandal in the 19th century.

Meanwhile, a band of well meaning but hopelessly ignorant Conservatives sends a letter to aboriginal groups, comemorating Columbus' first contact with Aboriginals, on the day of that is instead signficant as the day that India's constitution took effect in 1950. They sent the letter to the wrong group of "Indians", mixing up North Amerian "Indians" with denizans of India.

Predictably, the front page story today is not about massive fraud, corruption and breach of public trust of the Liberals, but is instead about a "clerical error" committed by the Conservatives.

Unbelievable. I'm glad we have a media who have the nation's priorities in order...

Here's an interesting twist. While the Federal Liberals were abusing their power nationally, the Conservatives were doing the same thing, on a smaller scale, in Ontario: See the full story here.

"We have a a scandal unravelling whereby our government misused over 100 million dollars of taxpayer money in order to line the pockets of businesses that were friendly to the Liberal party. This huge breach of public trust amounts to fraud and corruption the likes of which this nation has not seen since the CPR scandal in the 19th century.

Meanwhile, a band of well meaning but hopelessly ignorant Conservatives sends a letter to aboriginal groups, comemorating Columbus' first contact with Aboriginals, on the day of that is instead signficant as the day that India's constitution took effect in 1950. They sent the letter to the wrong group of "Indians", mixing up North Amerian "Indians" with denizans of India.

Predictably, the front page story today is not about massive fraud, corruption and breach of public trust of the Liberals, but is instead about a "clerical error" committed by the Conservatives.

Unbelievable. I'm glad we have a media who have the nation's priorities in order..."

has anyone noticed that he NDP is the ONLY party not in the headlines with some bumbling idiotic mistake or huge multimillion dollar scandal? or is that just me?

I take that as a good sign!

btw. Harper is still an idiot. Although it's good he apologized, but this adds to a long list of mental screwups over the last couple of years (Atlantic Canada has a defeatist attitude...yeah, good way to win over voters there Harper!)


I hope he gets the nomination so that the NDP will floor him. but that damned green party has to stop taking away their support base!

Thread digging time. :D

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/index.html

I think the CBC's online coverage on the Adscam is pretty good, despite their traditional Liberal angle. It sure helps for Canadians overseas... like me. I still feel like I'm catching up on old news though.

I'm very pleased that Paul Martin had no part in the scam, but I'm apalled with what the Gomery Report tells me. That high ranking officers in the Liberal Government knew exactly what they were doing. Including the PM Jean Chretien, despite his claims of acting in good faith. My gut feeling tells me quite clearly that the initial plan was to benefit liberal-friendly entities, under false pretenses, which is wrong in itself, but is unfortunately common practice in most democratic nations, and governments including Mulroney's tenure. Meanwhile Chretien's friends, and liberal underlings from Quebec took care of the rest. and made sure it got completely out of control, and it took years for someone to take notice or point the initial finger.

After Paul Martin having spent so many years literally riding shot gun, I don't think these are the circumstances he envisioned being PM.

Nothing surprising in the Gomery Report. Blame the old regime, while keeping the current regime "clean" from the stench of massive corruption.

All this report has done is confirm that I can't vote Liberal. Much like I wouldn't let a daycare company that has accused pedophiles within its ranks look after my daughter, I won't let a party that has accused embezzlers within its ranks look after my money.

The trick is, figuring out where to vote. I still have a few months to figure that out.

I'm voting Bloc.