Here's some links.

Fraser's Report

Timeline

Normally I'd link to canada.com but I'm not sure if non-subscribers can access the story.

While they were caught with hand in the cookie jar, I expect the Liberals will weasel their way out. Scapegoating Gagliano and the previous administration will be the order of the day and it will work. Ontario and Quebec will see that the only way to keep themselves in the dominant position in this country is to vote Liberal and will continue to do so.

Sigh.

If this keeps up it won't be "The West Wants In," but rather "The West Wants Out."

-Dunefish

As a Westerner, I think the "Western Alienation" thing is a bunch of Crap. Alberta, a Western province, is currently the most privileged in the country, while Manitoba enjoys the most stable and recession proof economy in the country (despite being a "have not" province).

Western Alienation is a myth, plain and simple. Its more like Alberta Alienation. We, in the urban parts of Manitoba, do not feel Alientated. I for one am tired of Albertans and to a lesser extent British Columbians speaking on my behalf, stating that "the West" is alienated. Speak for yourselves. Leave Manitoba out of it.

As for Quebec and Ontario voting Liberal as some kind of conspiracy, it that were true, then why don't Albertans also vote Liberal and join in the conspiracy?

The fact of the matter is that Quebec has recently been voting as many or more Bloc MP's than liberals. (I think currently the split is 38-37). Hardly an overwhelming majority in Quebec for the Liberals.

And as for Ontario - do you recall a guy named Mike Harris? Arguable the most right wing political leader in the country?

The fact is Ontario will remain dominant in Canada because it has the population and large economy to ensure that it so remains. When Ontario voted overwhelmingly tory in 1984 and 1988, it remained dominant. It will remain dominant no matter what party is in power.

The Liberals have nothing to do with the fact that Ontario happens to be our strongest region, and will continue to remain our strongest region for the foreseeable future.

This not a surprise @ all, the liberals getting caught and then getting out of it. This won't affect the election in anyway possible, I garantee it. However, what will affect the libs is the alienation of the more leftist voters who vote for them. I think, the NDP will mount a strong campaign to fight the liberals, particulary in Ontario(Layton's from Toronto, while, Broadbent is running in Ottawa, and Copps is flirting with them).

As far the West wants Out thought, I garantee that the west won't seperate in our lifetimes. Quite frankly, it really is only Alberta that wants to get out, not anybody else, and they really don't want it that bad. Here in Saskatchewan, nobody really mentions the idea of seperation, in fact, we're very much the opposite of Alberta. In our political history we've only voted in two maybe three conservative governments, In fact since the times of Tommy Douglas, we've only voted in one liberal government and one conservative government. My understanding of Alberta is that, they've always been a consevative province and will probably never change. However, even if they are led by Klein, Alberta doesn't have the guts to leave this country.

You can take that to the bank..... the money bank that is.

Alberta has always been a one party state.

In its early pre-oil history, a dominant party was the United Farmers of Alberta, which espoused a strange blend of conservatism and socialistm.

As oil was discovered in Alberta, Bible Bill Abehard and the Social Credit Party took over in the 30's, espousing conservative values. They remained in Power virtually unchallenged for 40 years.

They were replaced by an equally conservative group of Tories in the late 60's or early 70's, who have had virtually unchallenged rule (I do recall the Libs mounting a challenge in the early 90's, but it predictably fell short).

Alberta is an example of a province that is very traditional, voting the same way over and over again. It is quite unique in that respect.

MP's for Alberta and BC: 60
MP's for Quebec: 74

Population of AB+BC: 7 061 458
Population of PQ: 7 487 169

That's 14 extra seats for 425 711 extra people.

The Canadian average is 105 364 per seat (31 million divided by 301 seats.).

This is the democratic deficit you hear so much about. This and the unelected Senate.

Alberta is the most wealthy province in Canada but by no means are we the most privileged. We pay billions in transfer payments and have no say in the national agenda.

The best examples are:
1. Kyoto: This would absolutely devastate Alberta's oil and gas industry.
2. Gun Registry: No one robs a gas station or does a drive-by with a hunting rifle.
3. Wheat Board: Only western farmers are forced to participate, everyone else is exempt.

I'll borrow a quote from Will and Ian Ferguson:
"Albertans do not suffer fools gladly, which is why they have such an antagonistic relationship with the federal government."

Mike Harris was brilliant. A leader to be proud of. Too bad Eves had to screw it all up.

As for alienation maybe it's true that Alberta is the only one making noise but that's because only a very small minority of people in Alberta gel with the feds whereas in Manitoba and Saskatchewan people are much more sympathetic toward government meddling. Those provinces have as little say as Alberta but just don't fight for anything. Alberta has a group studying the "firewall" principle right now, in which we sever as many ties as possible with the feds. Own income tax, own pension plan, own provincial police...

Interesting side note, Klein is losing popularity for being too leftist. No joke.

-Dunefish

What does your little math lesson have to do with your earlier point that Ontario and Quebec are conspiring to keep the liberals in power to keep their position of privilege?

You raise a good point about democratic deficit. However, this does absolutely nothing to convince me that your original point about an Ontario/Quebec/Liberal conspiracy has any merit.

As for the transfer payments - that is a simplistic analysis. For all of your transfer payments, Alberta comes out ahead. The reason? The "have nots" subsidize your pool of labour.

Manitoba, for instance, fully subsidizes the education of its students from Kindergarten to grade 12, and subsidezes 75% of the cost of post secondary education. Then, when everyone graduates, they go to Alberta, without having worked here to pay off the 17 or so years of subsidized education they have received in taxes.

In essence, Alberta draws in fully trained labour from other provinces, without having put in one cent towards their educations. Then, they get to grow fat off of their tax revenues.

When you factor that in, Alberta comes out ahead, in spite of the transfer payments. Any way you slice it, it is a good deal. Alberta is a net importer of the best talent from everywhere else. Their transfer payments do not even come close to covering the cost in subsidies the have not provinces put into training these employees.

1. Kyoto. We could give a rat's ass about Alberta's oil industry. We'd prefer to breathe clean air and stave off global warming, thank you very much. And maybe if Alberta's economy wasn't a one trick pony, Kyoto wouldn't matter so much. ALberta has had 70 years to diversify its economy. And it has failed miserably in doing so. Regardless, one day the oil economy will collapse, and Alberta will be Saskatchewan's poor sister. Perhaps something should have been done to address this eventuality...

2. The Gun Registry - Contrary to what you say, many crimes are committed with hunting rifles. THe 16 women who died at the Engineering school in Montreal a decade ago were killed with one. I keep seeing crime stopper advertisements where people rob the gas bar with a shot gun. It happens. As someone who grew up in a house full of guns, I have no problem with teh gun registry. It ensures that gun owners are responsible. I've known far too many irresponsible gun owners in my life. It's about time they were put to account.

3. Wheat Board - if you took a poll of Western Farmers, they'd vote to keep it. It may not fit within the narrow neo-conservative framework you seem to be working from, but the Wheat Board has served Canada's farmers well since its inception.

Manitoba and Saskatchewan fight for lots of things. Medicare would be a good example. Tommy Douglas in Saskacthewan introduced it. Then it went National. Sensible auto insurance schemes would be another example. Those two provinces have the lowest rates in the nation.

The only difference is the battles we pick out in Manitoba/Saskatchewan seem to be successful. Alberta, despite its power, resources and wealth, is not successful in implementing its ideas nationally.

To Alberta - go ahead and get your firewall. When the last oil well runs dry, you'll be that much more financially screwed. The fact no one in Alberta can see this coming is scary.

You'll give a rat's ass when Alberta's economy collapses and the air isn't any cleaner. China, Russia, and India (who produce most of the world's "greenhouse gasses") are exempt and the US, who produce the rest, isn't even in the Treaty. The effect of Kyoto will be negligible.

Was the gun his? Or was it stolen? If it was his, the registry would have done nothing. If he stole it and it wasn't reported yet, again nothing would have happened. If he stole it, it was reported and no cop looked at the gun, nothing.

Yes, I'm sure they would. My grandpa and uncles all use the wheat board and love it. But it should be voluntary.

The math proves that Quebec has a disproportionate number of seats. That hurts every other province. I never meant to imply that there was a conspiracy, only that the CPC will have to move toward centre and promise not to take away any of the East's power before they will make significant progress there.

The best way to fix our system is to introduce Proportional Representation and a Triple E senate.

-Dunefish

Amen to PR. I'll go to my grave demanding it. I don't care about the Senate. Save us all money and just abolish it.

As for the seat issue. PEI also has a disproportionate amount of seats. They have 4 despite a population of less than 200,000. So it's not just Quebec. Your point is well taken though.

As for Kyoto - Russia will likely sign. That one is undecided.

As for the registry - I don't know the particulars of Lepine's use of the gun. However, if you have to register your car, I think it's a good idea that your gun should be registered too. I'm in the minority, but I like the registry. I like the fact that gun owners are held to account.

woo! PR! yeah! :D

Klein losing seats for being too leftist, man, what's Alberta doing over there?

Now, it seems to me, (being a history buff) that many ppl said that all of Trudeau's economic ideas would essientially kill Alberta, and as you pointed out Dunefish, Alberta today, is the richest of all the provinces.

Mik Harris brilliant, I'd never thought I'd hear those two terms put in the same sentence, not after the nose dive the conservatives took.

Personally, I like the Senate, there main job really, is to analyze all the legislation that comes out of the House. Quite Frankly, we just need to have these guys actually dedicated to working for the country as opposed to anything. I believe that the Senate (along w/ the GG) provides a check for the powers that be in the House.

My only problem w/ Gun regristry is that it's costing too much money, come on now, it should really cost the billion or so that it supposedly is costing. Otherwise, all it is trying to do is keep gun owners in check. Not that I have a problem w/ guns, it's just that i figure, we might as well, keep track of who has them.

when people I talk to ask me why I feel so alone in a province of over 3 million people, I use Dunefish as an example


I am a social democrat within a province of social conservatives. I feel so alone, so alien in this province




and I hate Klein. I spit at the mention of his name. HE is the reason that my tuition will climb by at least another 500 dollars next year.

HE is the reason I don't drive my own car. the insurance would be almost as much as my college tuition

HE is the reason I will be moving to Ontario when I finish my degree. I hate this province and unless the social and neo conservatives smarten up I'm never coming back. This province gives a lot yes, but it also gets a lot in return. It all evens out. I agree with giving Quebec a few more seats. I don't see what it matters anyways, it's not like Alberta is ignored or anything.


The only reason that meany people in alberta hatte the federal government is because the Conservatives have only been in power sporatically since Confederation.


People continue to talk about the Alberta Advantage. I think it's bullshit. the only reason we are STILL a have province is because we have Oil. once the oil drips its last drop we'll be even more poor than the Maritimes. Our farmers are becoming bankrupt, our scumsucking PC government is leeting huge agribusinesses pollute our lands and buy out dozens of farmers every year, and despite record industry profits in the last ten years the average income of this province has gone DOWN


where is the Alberta Advantage?

it should be:

"The Alberta Advantage!*

*only applicable to multi-millionaires



you tell me 3 really good reasons why the Tories should stay in power.


I don't wantto be America Jr.



/vote NDP- I support Kyoto, the Gun Registry, and Nationalized Industry. Stomp out NeoConservatism before it kills us all