Here's the draft. Lets discuss its strengths and weakensses, and then put the final version of the proposed document to a vote. The old constitution, FYI, is in the other pinned thread in this forum.

Constitution of the Region of Canada

I – Elections

1. Elections shall be held every two calendar months. The Elections shall be organized by the Minister of Regional Affairs. They shall take place on the Regional off-site Board. The elections shall elect members to Cabinet, as outlined in Article II.

2. Subject to paragraph 3, all leaders of nations residing within Canada, regardless of UN status, shall be entitled to vote.

3. Notwithstanding paragraph 2, Leaders of more than one nation within Canada shall be restricted to a single vote.

4. The voting period of Elections shall commence at 8:00 a.m. on a Thursday, and end at 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time on the following Sunday.

5. It is acknowledged that Regional Elections shall have no effect on the selection Canada’s Regional Delegate. It is acknowledged that the Regional Delegate shall continue to remain elected by virtue of the processes in place at the www.nationstates.net website.

6. Only those members who are registered as members of the Regional off-site Board when the polls open shall be entitled to vote. Members who register after the polls open shall not be able to vote until the next set of elections takes place in two months time.

7. Where there is a tie, the Prime Minister shall have a tie breaking vote.

II – Positions in Cabinet

1. The following positions shall make up the cabinet. Each noted position shall have the duties listed herein;

(a) Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for maintaining and establishing diplomatic ties with other regions. If the Minister so wishes, the Minister may establish embassies and hire ambassadors to other regions at Nation States.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs, shall ass Minister of Defence with the coordination of the Dogs of War alliance.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for amassing foreign civilian Intelligence.

(b) Minister of Defence
The Minister of Defence shall be responsible for readying Canada’s nations for military roles, whether it be in defence of the Region, or in a military or occupational struggle in other regions.

The Minister of Defence shall be the director of the Dogs of War Alliance.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for amassing foreign military intelligence.

c) Minister of Regional Affairs
The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be in charge of communicating with all member nations of Canada. The Regional Affairs Minister shall inform member nations of events of significance, including, but not limited to upcoming UN resolutions. The Regional Affairs Minister shall seek and gauge regional opinion on issues of importance based on both formal and informal polling methods. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be responsible for amassing domestic intelligence. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be responsible for organizing all elections and referenda. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be given Administrator positions on the Regional off-site Board.

(d) Minister of Doughnuts and Beer
The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall be responsible for the preservation of Canadian culture. The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall roam the region and promote unique aspects of Canadian culture. The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall be expected to make one post per week on a cultural topic, such as a review of a specific beer, or assessment of local doughnut chains.

(e) Minister of Justice
The Minister of Justice shall draft laws and UN resolutions at the request of Cabinet, or on its own initiative. All UN resolutions drafted may be listed for proposal without Cabinet approval or a vote. However, all laws drafted must be approved by a vote of the Cabinet. The Minister of Justice shall administer the Regional dispute resolution tribunal.

(f) Prime Minister
The Prime Minister shall be the sitting UN Delegate of the region, and shall be elected through the UN Delegate election mechanisms already in place at the www.nationstates.net website. The Prime Minister’s responsibilities shall be restricted to those responsibilities given to it at Nation States. The Prime Minister shall be given Administrator privileges on the Regional off-site Board.

2. Each Cabinet Minister will be able to appoint a Deputy Minister, who shall take the Minister's place on an interm basis should the elected Minister be unable to continue holding office. Where a Minister fails to hold office and no Deputy Minister has been appointed, the Prime Minister shall appoint a Deputy Minister until the next elections.

III Amending Formula
1. This Constitution shall only be amended upon a resolution achieving:
(a) Majority support in a Cabinet Vote; and
(b) Majority support in a special Referendum of all Regional Members, in accordance with the rules of Article I above.

After a quick first pass here's my comments:

One-way to flesh out the details without complicating the constitution is to post job descriptions for each of the Cabinet seats in a separate document. That way the details of each seat can be worked out without being directly tied to the constitution (similar to the concept of executive regulations in addition to laws).

Item I-1: Two months is a very long time in NS time. I understand it takes effort to gear up for an election. You may find holding them once a month will encourage greater participation and that member turnover, in the region, will be lowered.

Item I-3: I don't know of any good way to handle the puppet voting issue. Your access to IP is the best I can think of. However, what happens if the region loses that access? If the regional forum were set up to not permit duplicate e-mails then item I-6 would be a good back up process.

Item I-7: This should also state that the Prime Minister's vote is not counted unless there is a tie.

Item II-1(a): Seems to me that "establish embassies" should require cabinet approval. Also, Foreign Affairs "assing" Defense seems to be very much in line with RL :-)

Item II-1(b ): One would assume that military alliances are approved only by the Cabinet. Splitting the collection of intelligence into two parts creates a duplication of effort in a task that is already time consuming. Might want to consider making this a separate Cabinet seat. You might want to make it a requirement that the Nation holding this seat has already been a member of the "Dogs of War".

Item II-1( c): Very well done. Not as important, in this case, but the intelligence gathering could be in a separate intelligence seat.

Item II-1(d): Shouldn't this seat be required to arrange delivery of free samples for all members of the region :-)

Item II-1(e): The "Regional dispute resolution tribunal" process needs to be documented. Although it doesn't have to be part of the constitution (to keep things simple). I do have a list of prohibited actions, that I've polished up from another forum, which could be used as a basis for the "legal code". It's based in the NS fourm guidelines.

Item III-1: Might want to require that an amendment needs sponsorship of at least one Cabinet member to be brought to a vote.

Those suggestions sound great. I'll review them more when I have time (work suddenly got busy...). however, my preliminary assessment is that your suggestions for fine tuning will greatly tighten up the document.

One change I'm not sure about is not allowing the Prime Minister to have a second vote, as opposed to one vote that can only be issued when there is a tie. I know in municipal politics the mayor has a second tie breaking vote, while in corporations, often, the president of a corp will have a second tie breaking vote (I come from a corporate law background, hence my affinity for the second tie breaking vote).

However, if the concept of two votes for the PM in cases of a tie is unpopular, I'll drop that with no hesitation.

As for the two months - my concern was with stability. I know in other regions that I have visited, the one month period seems short, in that everyone is so busy campaigning that they don't have any time to actually *do* anything. The two month period was chosen by me to let the government govern. However, I do see your argument in favour of the one month term.

Once again, I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. I'm certainly open to experimenting with the one month term.

i see your point about splitting foreign Intel. Maybe it is best to allow defence to do that, in consultation with Foreign Affairs (i.e., direct FA to inform Defense of any interesting Intel).

I like the rest of your comments and suggestions as well, and, assuming there is no opposition, will certainly amend the proposed document to reflect those suggestions before we send this off to a vote.

I'm not familiar with the concept of a "second vote". If there are case in RL where this works one would think that it could work here as well. For me the attraction to, one vote per member, is that it allows the PM to "stay above the fray" and they only get involved if there is a tie.

I'm pumped that you like the suggestion for free samples! Now I'm REALLY glad I joined this region. In fact, I predict that Canada will become the fast growing region in all of NS... :lol:

Yeah, I see that. But it would also be an incentive against being the UN delegate, as you would not have a voice at home. But then again, perhaps that doesn't matter (being delegate is a powerful position, and you are automatically elected to cabinet, so perhaps the PM shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I hate it when I debate with myself...

Don't think there is a right answer to the second vote issue. It mostly impacts the tone and flavor of the cabinet. Keep in mind being both PM and UN delegate also provides a strong "soap box" influence.

geez - you guys really been going at it some.

1st up in this situation i gotta agree with hudson - 1 member one vote, and with PM casting vote only. Seems to make sense in my mind, alhthough explaining why is tougher. I think probably because the PM is not decided in this contest, but rather by the Nation States website. I think that though the cabinet and PM are gonna be working closely, that the selection processes should stay as separate as possible. There is a nice symmetry in that (bad spelling but,... hey?)

2nd It seems that regional affairs and Justice have a great deal in common and that the post could infact be done by one person. I have only been here a short while, but somehow I doubt the need for full time Justice of the Peace. I haven't really seen any real in fighting here yet, but I don't know - maybe i missed a bit ruck :rolleyes: In any case - it seemed that the foriegn affairs office should have jurisdiction over UN legislation making the regional affairs portfolio slightly lighter, allowing for the Justice, and regional tribunal part of the job could be handed over to Regional Affairs.

What do you think?

There are two aspects to Justice. Overseeing tribunals, and drafting legislation, treaties and the like. While there may not be much in the way of trials, there is a strong likelihood that laws, UN proposals, and legal opinions will be required of the Justice Minister. As such, I feel strongly in favour of keeping a separate Justice Ministry. As participation grows, and the web of laws increases with a maturing region, we'll need to have the separeate ministry of justice.

Fair comment, well made.

I was more thinking of the short term in many respects, and in a lot of ways you're right about planning for the future.

I agree that a Ministry of Justice should have little in the way of resolving regional disputes to do initially. Given the current mood of cooperation in this region, may that continue to be the case.

However, should UN proposals really fall under the remit of regional affairs? As this has a lot more to do with internation, and inter-regional politics, shouldn't the Office for Foreign Affairs be involved?

Just a thought. I am happy to be argued down on it, as I am really only trying to give as much feedback on this as I can given my inexperience in the game so far.

Hope you don't mind :)

I love feedback. Believe me, after three months of total silence, I'm a happy guy right now.

I think when it comes to UN proposals, due to their legal nature, the drafting aspect should be left up to the Justice Minister. However, I agree that the Justice Minister should only draft something if specifically instructed by Cabinet, and all drafting should be in consultation with the appropriate Ministers (for instance, a Military proposal should involve Defence, any UN proposal with an international flavour should involve Foreign Affairs, etc.)

So certainly, an explicit amendment can be made that states that UN drafting should be done on direction of the Cabinet, and in consultation with Minister's who have a portfolio which touches upon the subject matter of the proposal. That all makes sense.

I am happy with that.

It means that though the Justice Minister responsible for the drafting and wording of the propsal, the cabinet's relevant members are the driving force behind it. I like that.

Agreed!

:D

Anyone else?

Hi Guys

I agree with the one vote process with the PM casting their vote only in case of a tie. This allows the PM to be impartial by listening to all of the opinions and views. They do not need to vote unless there is a tie. They can then guide the discussion of an issue. In municipal politics this is usually the case.

The puppet issue concerns me. Whatever the process we need to be sure one vote per player.

Finally two months seems to be good, I know two months is long however I do think one month is too short.

After putting in a post in the UN section a question came up. Can we put a cabinet position such as UN Affairs to deal with getting UN resolutions Passed or voted down based on the opinions of our cabinet. The last few poorly worded and poor resolutions have passed even though as I recall our a majority in our region voted against the res.

The position could be to visit other regions to lobby support for our regions views. This could be a tough time consuming position but would definitly make us a signifigant region.

Any thoughts,

I agree that we should have a lobbying component at the UN level. My thought is that there should not be a UN lobbying position. Rather, a "UN Group" could be a council organized by the Foreign Affairs Minister. the FA Minister could chair a lobby group, directing its members to contact certain regions. Since Foreign Affairs has responsibility for contact with other regions, I think it would fit well in the FA mandate, and by creating a UN Gruop, it will give those who did not get elected to cabinet a role in the day to day affairs of the region.

That's my thought.

Sounds like a good idea and spread the work around.

I found a major hole in the constitution. I think we should indicate somewhere that laws and decisions affecting the region can only be approved by a vote of the cabinet, whereby a majority in favour is required in order to pass the law/decision.

This would be separate and apart from amendments to the constitution.

Anyone have a problem with that?

With all the added opinions the constitution seems that it will turn out all right but what about government style like socialism or communism added just for fun in the game since if we have a government we should have some sort of style to reflect our decisions on.

The style of the government should be up to the electors. If you want to elect communists, then encourage communist candidates to run and vote for them. If you want Conservatives, then get conservatives to run and vote for them.

As part of any election, there will be open forums for you to ask about political affiliations, so I'd suggest you lurk in the weeds, and nail all candidates with questions about political affiliations. The "ideology" issue will be an interesting aspect of each election, and in the end, the electors will decide what bent the cabinet has. (Just like in real life, I guess)

Could be fun once the consitution is in place for nations to set up opposition parties. Hopefully not all modeled on RL. Of course the Party Party has been done before. Maybe I'll start the Snow Snake Party (Motto: It's all just an illusion anyway).

This all raises an interesting point about election promises

Should there be some mechanism for first warning, and then replacing elected official's who repeatedly go back on their word?

With it being only a two month appointment, would it be better to bar offenders from running for office again?

Or would it be better to let the people decide who it is that has let them down in the past?

Man, i am full of questions on this one, and few answers, but is that such a bad thing?

Perhaps it is better to pose opinions as questions?

who knows?

er......where was I? :blink:

seriously though - do we want any built in mechanism for discouraging poor ethics during and after campaigns?

Ideally actions speak louder than words. Truly only the real active members will see that promises are broken. Therefore it may not be a bad idea to put something in place.

What you are talking about appears to be a Recall mechanism like the one that was exercised in California which led to Schwartzenegger's election as Governor.

Personally, I don't see a need - I mean, Cabinet should keep each other in check. The only problem I can see is if we elect an entire slate of slackers. In that case though, elections will take place eventually.

And if things get bad, you'll get somoene like me who'll just suddenly jump start the process without any authority (which is basically what I'm doing now - I just unilaterally started the election and constitution threads to try to get some thing going).

So, I don't see it as a problem, nor do I see any good mechanisms to "unelect" someone. I am open to suggestions though.

But please Boardz, keep asking questions - it's very productive and welcome.

Good luck enforcing ethics in politics :lol:

Now I think you're on to something "the Slacker Party". In most cases that would be truth in advertising.

Bweezy do you plan to up date the draft with the suggestions made to far?

Yes, I want to make sure the first round of discussion has subsided, then I'll post a second draft. If it looks ok, then I'll move to put the draft to a referendum.

I'll try to get a new draft on-line either tonight or tomorrow.

I've tinkered with the draft based on earlier feedback. Let me know if I missed anything.

--

Constitution of the Region of Canada

I – Elections

1. Elections shall be held every two calendar months. The Elections shall be organized by the Minister of Regional Affairs. They shall take place on the Regional off-site Board. The elections shall elect members to Cabinet, as outlined in Article II.

2. Subject to paragraph 3, all leaders of nations residing within Canada, regardless of UN status, shall be entitled to vote.

3. Notwithstanding paragraph 2, Leaders of more than one nation within Canada shall be restricted to a single vote.

4. The voting period of Elections shall commence at 8:00 a.m. on a Thursday, and end at 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time on the following Sunday.

5. It is acknowledged that Regional Elections shall have no effect on the selection Canada’s Regional Delegate. It is acknowledged that the Regional Delegate shall continue to remain elected by virtue of the processes in place at the www.nationstates.net website.

6. Only those members who are registered as members of the Regional off-site Board when the polls open shall be entitled to vote. Members who register after the polls open shall not be able to vote until the next set of elections takes place in two months time.

7. Where there is a tie, the Prime Minister shall have a tie breaking vote. The Prime Minister shall not otherwise be entitled to vote in an election.

II – Positions in Cabinet

1. The following positions shall make up the cabinet. Each noted position shall have the duties listed herein;

(a) Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for maintaining and establishing diplomatic ties with other regions. If the Minister so wishes, the Minister may establish embassies and hire ambassadors to other regions at Nation States, subject to the approval of cabinet.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs, shall assist the Minister of Defence with the coordination of the Dogs of War alliance. The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall chair the United Nations steering group, which will monitor the UN and suggest proposals to submit to the UN for consideration.

(B) Minister of Defence
The Minister of Defence shall be responsible for readying Canada’s nations for military roles, whether it be in defence of the Region, or in a military or occupational struggle in other regions.

The Minister of Defence shall be the director of the Dogs of War Alliance, and shall at all times be a member of good standing to the Dogs of War Alliance. The Minister of Defence shall be responsible for amassing foreign military and civilian intelligence.

The Minister of Defence shall recommend military actions. Such actions shall be adopted by Canada upon approval of cabinet.

c) Minister of Regional Affairs
The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be in charge of communicating with all member nations of Canada. The Regional Affairs Minister shall inform member nations of events of significance, including, but not limited to upcoming UN resolutions. The Regional Affairs Minister shall seek and gauge regional opinion on issues of importance based on both formal and informal polling methods. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be responsible for amassing domestic intelligence. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be responsible for organizing all elections and referenda. The Minister of Regional Affairs shall be given Administrator positions on the Regional off-site Board.

(d) Minister of Doughnuts and Beer
The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall be responsible for the preservation of Canadian culture. The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall roam the region and promote unique aspects of Canadian culture. The Minister of Doughnuts and Beer shall be expected to make one post per week on a cultural topic, such as a review of a specific beer, or assessment of local doughnut chains.

(e) Minister of Justice
The Minister of Justice shall draft laws and UN resolutions at the request of Cabinet, or on its own initiative. All UN resolutions drafted may be listed for proposal without Cabinet approval or a vote. However, all laws drafted must be approved by a vote of the Cabinet. The Minister of Justice shall draft regional administration protocols and administer the Regional dispute resolution tribunal. Subject to Article III, all laws shall be adopted upon majority vote of the Cabinet.

(f) Prime Minister
The Prime Minister shall be the sitting UN Delegate of the region, and shall be elected through the UN Delegate election mechanisms already in place at the www.nationstates.net website. The Prime Minister’s responsibilities shall be restricted to those responsibilities given to it at Nation States. The Prime Minister shall be given Administrator privileges on the Regional off-site Board.

2. Each Cabinet Minister will be able to appoint a Deputy Minister, who shall take the Minister's place on an interim basis should the elected Minister be unable to continue holding office. Where a Minister fails to hold office and no Deputy Minister has been appointed, the Prime Minister shall appoint a Deputy Minister until the next elections.

III Amending Formula
1. This Constitution shall only be amended upon a resolution sponsored by a member of Cabinet which achieves:
(a) Majority support in a Cabinet Vote; and
(B) Majority support in a special Referendum of all Regional Members, in accordance with the rules of Article I above.

looking good.

i think this is fairly close, if not ready for adoption.

been busy for a while, but for the record - i think Hudson is right about politics and ethics, and I think that I will be lending my support to the slacker party. :)

plus - I am cool about the whole not having recall rules.

South Pacific nations are very friendly. But I shall report more on this in another topic.

Looks good to me.

Looking good just thought of these points:

"Elections shall be held every two calendar months." Do you want to turn over the entire cabinet at the same time? Maybe it's a two month term but half get elected one month and half get elected the next?

"Regional Delegate shall continue to remain elected by virtue of the processes in place at the www.nationstates.net website." You never mention how or when the process to have nations place their endorsements for a new delegate is to happen.

"occupational struggle in other regions" Shouldn't we require a treaty to be in place before committing our resources?

Hey what happend to the part about free beer and dounut samples? That's the most important part :angry:


:lol: :lol:

I'd rather not have "rolling" elections. Administratively, I think that might get too difficult or confusing. My aim was to try to keep things simple. When things got too complicated last summer, the government collapsed. I'm trying to avoid that this time around.

I don't want to get too specific about the delegate electing process, as that is dependent on what the NS Mods do. If the process for endorsement changes somehow, I don't want to have to re-amend this. My point was just to state that NS provides a mechanism in place allow people to endorse others, and that mechanism shall be used to elect our prime minister and UN Delegate.

A thought has occurred to me though. Should we put something in the constitution requiring anyone wanting the delegacy to declare their intentions? I say that because if we wake up one morning and some invader who we know nothing about is within striking distance of taking the delegacy, we have no quick and effective means to say, impose martial law and boot the invader. It would be nice to know who wants the job in advance (I'm leaning against stating this, because if we end up getting a founder, then that problem could be solved).

Lastly, this is a high level document. Whether we should have treaties in place before aiding another region should really be up to cabinet on a case by case basis. I don't see that as necessarily being appropriate for a framework document like a Constitution.

Those are my thoughts at this time. As always, I'm open to further discussion and will adopt the majority view.

yeah - more beer and dog nuts. :D

Right on the treaty thing, i think that we are going to have to make a decision on a case by case basis.

When both foriegn affairs and defence are occupied positions they can collaborate about what resources should be commited to other regions.

I guess we should aid allied regions in favour of unallied regions. However it seems its always in a regions interests to make friends in regions we are unfamilliar with.

Yet again this may well turn out to be a cabinet decision thing.

I understand you are using the NS endoresment mechanism. What I'm asking is when and who calls for the PM's election?

Don't want to complicate things but here's some delegate election text I've used before. Modified to match this set up:

The delegate position will be held for not more than two consecutive terms.

The Minister of Regional Affairs is responsible for calling an election (assigning of endorsements by Canada members) not later than the week prior the voting period.

Any Canada member wishing to take the UN seat of the next round must announce intention in the Regional Message board not later than the day before the start of the voting period.

Canada members are required to provide and retain their endorsement, to one of the members seeking the delegation seat, during the regional endorsement period. Members may abstain from voting in any election, but only new members to the region will be allowed to add endorsements outside of the election period.

While it is not a requirement to be a UN member to join the region, the Canada member must a UN member to be a delegate.

The Delegate is required to post a forum thread, to give the Canada members a chance to hear the delegate's views and to express their own views, on the current pending UN issue. (Delegate requirements for each UN resolution - Post a topic in the regional forum to document the resolution, document the delegate's position, document their reasoning behind the position, and review the input from Canada members prior to voting on said resolution)

The tally votes will be of those Canada members who post their vote in the forum topic.

The Delegate is compelled to lodge their UN vote according to the majority of member nations. Only in case of a deadlock will the delegate's vote be counted.

Oh yeah - also free beer and doughnuts will be provided after each UN vote. (hey I'm not giving up without a fight) :lol:

I like the mechanism to get the UN Delegate to vote for resolutions based on the will of the majority. That is what the practice has been here since I joined seven months ago, and I'd like that to be built into the constitution.

As for electing a delegate, my concern is that will be too difficult in a region like ours. As you may have noticed, people tend to show up endorse someone, and then disappear for weeks at a time.

Unless this region starts to get filled with more active members, then I don't see how we could possibly enforce an organized election for delegates. People tend to endorse who they want when they happen to be around, then disappear.

What I'd suggest is we keep the Delegate election formula you've brought to us on the back burner, for possible introduction later on as an amendment, once the spirit of participation and activism has returned to the region. Until that time, I think we are stuck with the current system (which, admittedly has weaknesses - it potentially allows us to remain with a delegate who stops playing, and we'd have up to 28 days of rule with an absentee delegate, 60 days if the nation is in vacation mode)

I may be wrong though. Does anyone else think that HB's proposed formalized Delegate election mechanism is currently practical, or am I just being too cynical?

If you don't have a way to remind people to think about who they want for delegate you will end up with the same nation for long periods of time. Most people only look at their endorsements when they first get to the region or if the delegate pisses them off.

On top of that the delegate is also the PM. So this nation not only represents the region in the UN they are also in charge of the cabinet. That is a lot of power. This seat definitely needs to be reviewed on a regular basis.

In the event that doughnuts are not available, cream cakes should be permitted and in the event of a tie the vanilla slice will have the casting vote.

Beer will be elected through the normal NS website. :D

and now for something completely different

Looking at the lists of member to Canada, many are UN Affiliated. Perhaps the opportunity to participate would kick start this silent majority.

Answers on a post card to this forum.