One of those Homer moments today DOH!

Having decided that the car -S4 - had to have a 4 inch chassis height to look right - 3 inches of suspension travel before the bump stops and the sump brought it all to a crashing stop accepted I did the required work to shift the chassis down wards a whole lot.

So what do I find - at 4 inches chassis clearance - the suspension completely binds and fouls and locks up un the chassis rails - :angry:

So what next :blink: It would seem that the original suspension was design for a minimum clearance of 4 inches - i.e. just when the car starts to look right and all the arch clearances etc make sense.and that the normal running height is around 7-8 inches as we all know you have 6 inch gaps on the arches and it looks like an off roader.

I now have to consider what to do with the suspension. The bottom wish bone looks ok at 4 inches - its almost parallel with the chassis which is not a bad starting point - The upper wishone being at an angle of what seems like 45 degrees when at 4 inch clearance and would be near vertical when at full bump.

So what next? move all the pick up points and go with Mr Duttons design :unsure: or move the top arms to a suitable position - looks like digging out the staniforth and doing a search on the net but any assistance from been there done its or suspension designers will be appreciated.

Cheers

Andrew

On a final note - I cannot believe how misaligned all the chassis points are - the roll bar mount has to distort the TCA bush to pull the arm to line up because the mounting bracket hole are dilled at least 15 degrees off of parallel !!

suspension pickup misalignment seems to be a common fault on duttons.When i decided to rebuild the chassis on my s3 i did away with the duuton set up completely and installed the locost type front and rear suspension instead.The problem i have found though is that the offset top wisbone needed to give the required castor angle doesn't actually give the amount of castor that ron champions book says.I only found this out after all the work was done and i drove it .unfortunately i didn't make the castor adjustable which is a shame cos it would have been easy at the build stage . instead i made a new set of top wishbones to give more castor which ihope to try soon.
milo

Aarrghh is all I can say about the workmanship on the suspension - and the chassis in general. All I can say is that it was done better than the build was carried out - :blink:

Off to Demon Tweeks and Cyril Wilcox tomorrow to get some bits and pieces - seen some really nice button head bolts for the bonnet brackets.

Still - I have to make a decision about the front suspension - I will not accept the offroad suspension thats the design says I have to have - if that means futher cutting and shutting - so be it.

On the S3 I have what I think is a copy of Westfields set up / locost with cortina uprights - only problem is that the Dutton pick ups were used and this means at 5 inches clearance it all binds - I also have a lower arm that is parallel with the chassis and an upper arm that is angled - Doh? - so in droop the caster angle increases - as I lower the suspension I get lots more caster coming on. - I havent quite sussed what this will do to the handling . - or what sort of trail I will end up with.

I have ordered somesuspension tuning books from amazon today so will do a bit of detailed reading before cutting the front about again.

Looks like the back axle will be coming out for some welding sooner than expected.

I am also having issues with the pedal box still as the current location in both cars seems to high for my size 9's and pretty uncomfortable.

Am I alone with all this or do the rest of Dutton owners just accept these as quirks :blink:

Cheers

Andrew

:( oh yes the nasty arch gaps, i have reduced the front by moving the top wish bone mount out , then had to shorten the top wish bone to allow for the correct camber, then the top ball joint was removed from each strut and the struts made about half inch lower, welded the two circular mounts back on for the ball joint and hey pressto, it works fine, archs a lot more filled, and the top wish bone do not hit the chassis anymore. has done 400 miles since changed and no problems what so ever.

B)

Sounds like a plan - great minds think alike but I was going to move the bottom arms out as well to increase the track at the same time - I have to modify the rack anyway to fit metric MK2 track rod ends so widening the rack a couple of inches is not an issue.

Then I though if going through all that trouble why stick with the wibbly wobbly lower escort TCA and go the whole hog twin wishbone et al.

An alternative is welding a bracket on the escort TCA and provide another arm with rose joints. - I think caterham did this as the button set up is an upside down version of the early seven suspension.


Well - went and got some new AVO competition coilovers today with some 300lb springs - The frond end is being drawn up at the moment so that I can design and check all the geometry.

Russ what chassis/ground clearance are you running?


Cheers

Andrew

I think i have 4 inch clearence on the sump, and about inch on the chassis, but i want it to look lower, so next winter will be a body drop, at the moment its on about 1" spacers, which can swap for very thin rubber, this way the suspension geometry is not changed at all. i have gaz fully adjustables on mine, 245lbs springs and the setup is perfect for my s3 with 1780 x-flow, now have pre-sets on these, one for road, one for track, and one to be gentle on my back.

oh i forgot to say, i have about a half inch gap between the top wishbone (end nearest the front) and the chassis. i have the ends of the wishbone to see if it binds ever, has not yet.

Thanks for the info Russ.

I have left the suspension for a bit - Still doing sketches - I have taken to sorting the engine out - got it running and sorted the side exit exhaust out looks and sounds rather nice. B)

Do you have the facility to take digital photos of the suspension mods you did- would be nice to see what you have done. I have decided to get rid of the Escort TCA and make a lower wish bone. This allows be to drop the shocker down so can still use a longer 12" shock without the need to build short towers to mount them on. The 12" shock allows 2.5" of travel before the bump stop.

Will be at Stafford on Saturday to take some pictures and get some more bits and bobs. And meet and greet.
May have to go out Friday and get and get a bigger card for the camera. . :o

Shopping list is growing - Radiator - switches - fog lamps - odds and sods. - ball joints.

Cheers

Andrew

Suspension is moving on at a snails pace :( - Went to get an escort mk2 rack for sale in the local paper - brand new for not a lot and what does the seller have in the corner of the garage - no not a long lost Dutt :o - a pair of fully reconditioned Cortina uprights hubs/disc assy's and an Escort 2 axle (3.89) and all the relevant ball joints pads and rod ends - He started building a locost and gave up - So made him offer he didn't refuse :D

So all change - at the moment the front end will be rebuilt with MK2 but standard and lower suspension - later It will be changed for a properly designed system using Cortina bits .

The standard suspension design at the front is quite frankly a disaster - I would not dream of fitting poly bushes to it - they would be destroyed in short order because of the serious misalignments - I guess the only saving grace is that with such short movement they may last longer than to the bottom of the drive.

When back to the garage to carry out the sorting of the wiring that is progressing quite well - I have removed about 2 kg of wiring and still have all the connections I need :blink:

Cheers

Andrew

so anymore news on the front suspension yet? well my s3 came a cropper today on a nicely position roundabout, looks as if the mods done to the front suspension were not up to scratch as i landed in the middle of the grass, went round it a bit quick rear end came out, lots of burning rubber and backwards on to the roundabout, so have now taken off the modded wishbones etc and have replaced with original items for now, until i work out what went wrong , and how to fix it.

:o

Ooops,

Its coming along slowly as I have to hand fabricate and align everything and at the moment with the engine in the engine bay checking alignments side to side is difficult. So it looks like its coming out before the final full welding up.

I have only made very small changes to the front at the moment. its the back end that will recieve the biggest mods with the 5 link system. the live axle on springs at the back of my S4 floats all over the place and I would not wish to put any power through it - the springs are too stiff and as they are so old and corroded are rpobably solid as no way will they slip and with so little wieght there is very little chance of enough energy being present to get them moving - Its easier to strip them off rather and throw them away rather than rebuild them + nice and easy with full adjustable rear end to dial it all in.

Just to sum up the rear end - its 3/4" further over to the right than the left - with three people in the tub there is no real movement in the springs - leaf springs are great when they new and are looked after - but after at least 25 years down the line without any maintenance they are screwed + 1.9 springs are cheap and easy to get hold of and offer far better tuning options.

have also been busy with the re- wiring and the design of a bias brake system because of the discs alround.

Cheers

Andrew

Will get a web site organised soon and put up some pictures etc. - Will ask Simon if he wants to put a bit of a Breadline chapter in it.

Its a nice day I will get some more picture taken of progress.

Cheers

Andrew

:ph43r: Hi Guys! The Black beast is going just fine at the moment, Andy, the web site sounds great, you a whizz with these things then?! I'm affraid that I haven't even got to grips with metrification yet, let alone these thingies :D New race seat fitted after some glassing in of higher front mounts to ficilitate a more comfortable driving position, Note that I said more comfortable, as this new seat would have made a fine instrument of torture for the middle ages. Seat had to be fitted after I was nicely reminded,again, :unsure:, that the seating arrangements that I had would not be tolerated for much longer by the scruteneers. Was thinking of going to the Detling show this weekend but I don't think I could stand the new seating arrangements for the 3 hour drive :( Hope to see you all soon, Racving again on the 5th May, Oh did I tell you I came FIRST IN CLASS!!!!!in a cheap and nasty Dutton!!!!!!!! Woohooo !!!!!!!!!

B)

Not too bad at websites - have done a few - will need some pictures though and some contribution - 5th May supply the details. Will put a page up over the weekend. My old site need s a good clean up - just seen I have not touched it for 2 years :(

Off to stand trackside for hours as a course marshal for the weekend at Loton - weather looks like its going to be very pleasant so should be a good day - a lot of the big boys will be there giving the new kit a thrash so should get some good pointers.

Vrooommm Vroomm :ph43r:

Cheers

Andrew

Ooh PS - Breadline - sorted the suspension on the racer now very low 3" chassis clearance 1.5" travel and got a lead on some nice x-flow parts and some interesting wheels - hope they live up to expectation - also got a cheap Pinto 40's manifold £5 - now keeping an eye out for some cheap 40's to mount to it.

Its going to be sort the suspesion out on me S3 too. I've got locost wishbones with sierra stubs and converters for the front (taking into account top wishbone length for the sierra not cortina upright) + getting the right castor angle.

The rear will be a de-deon set up with sierra lsd mounted to chassis and the tube with trailing arms and panhard rod.

Any info/pics/ideas of others quests and ride heights would be handy... :D



Cheers



G

:rolleyes:

What can I say - its been a long time.

the suspension, as people on the message board will know is coming along - unfortunately the website has stalled and even what was there has gone as i took it down for work that just did not take place. Still with a new job and a nice new PC and software to play with I may do a few late nights and get a site in the rough pasted up.

Well to update I have figured a method still using the basic format of Mr Dutton that i can have 5 inches of chassis clearance with the ground and still get an acceptable - 2.5-3 inches of suspension travel but it has taken.

Capri front struts - 1" lower than escort as standard - then lower suspension 1" - make cut outs in chassis to avoid upper arms crashing into chassis - fit taller towers for coilovers - 12" long 112 compresses.

5 link rear axle with short arms 12" - well longer than a westfield but shorter than the 18" Dutton arms - located to gain lots of extra ****pit space - loads of room now :D -

Now at 5 inches chassis clearance you have 1" of travel until the diff crashes into the chassis rail that the rollbar mounts to - so its out with the welder and angle grinder to put a slot into it so that the diff can rise all the way up and hit the gass fibre of the tub :o - not to worry as the bump stops on the new coilovers now position themselves to stop the axle in its tracks a 1/4 of an inch before that happens.

Now apart from the coilovers the price of the work has been pretty cheap - OK I can weld and have access to a lathe but I am sure that should someone wish to follow the same path there are people in the club or nearby with similar skills and access to assist - its why we have a club surely.

Anyway the metal cost me about £15 the bushes £15 and the labour was free.
the capri struts were £30 a pair - but they were complete struts off a low milage 2.0L - The big expense are the shockers and springs which being AVO pro race coilovers are not cheap but also not beyond the bank at £80 each - you can do it with the GTS locost shocks at £200 a set which is the route PeteB went.

With the way I amd doing it - because the clearances are so close make sure if you do similar that brake pies and cables are very carefuly routed so that they cannot get trapped and crushed - this is especially true where the pipes exit the cylinders from the backplate - they are very close to the chassis and need a tight radius on then to get a decent clearance.

Now there has also been recent talk about the fitting of de dion systems in a Dutton and using the locost front ends and wishbones - i have every admiration for people embarking on fitting the sierra diff assy etc into a dutton - Its some serious chassis mods and glass fibre work :o no mean feat for sure.

On the locost suspension on the front - I can see that having some advantages and I have apair of good condition cortina uprights in the corner for such an occasion - I have also found out through the Sylva group that the track rod end of a Sherpa has the same taper at the escort TCA and lower wishbones can be fabricated with this component to give adjustable camber and with a new upper arms a wider front track if you so wish with more advantagous geometry.

All part numbers and information in due course.

Unfortunately the use of the engine and transaxle/dedion from my Alfa 75 twin spark - all alloy and 150bhp is a non starter as the transaxle is just to darn big. still the 1700 cross flow hotrod lump i picked up for peanuts should do the business when the 1700 stock motor lets go.

Oh and thanks to the locost builder group i picked up an excellent 5 speed box for £25 from a local guy steam cleaned an painted filled with new oil B) bad new is pete that yes the chassis has to be cut and shut to get the mount to fit - as its at 213/4" and the old one is at 18" will do some jiggling in the chassis but dont think we will get away with not doing some welding.


Well that enough for now.

as soon as g lkets me know where i will add some pictures and as soon as i can the website will be up that will be a technical mecca for dutton owners - as you can see i am not afraid to write a bit. :D

cheers

Andrew

:o Bloomin' 'eck - Jan 2006 and what am I doing today - Lowering the same darn S4 Dutton I started to lower "Gulp" nearly three years ago - where does the time go?

Well the S3 racer project and the S1 V8 went when the B+ arrived and the S4 stalled when the S1 arrived. And the S4 stopped when the B+ took over and the......

Well I am still working on the cars - and today I decided that the S4 suspension mods that are pictured on the website are not good enough so today in a bit of winter sun I whipped out the old grinder and took to the chassis again to move things about so that the geometry of the shockers is better and I am far happier with the results.

I am now sitting down with the measurements of the relocated shocker mounts on the wishbones calculating the leverages to work out what has happened to the spring rates.

The S4 is having some attention on it as I intend to sell it pretty soon after I have finished it :blink: :o the reason being I have got it into my head that I need an Alfa powered BType/B+

I keep promising an updated website and beleive it or not I have been working on it so keep an eye on it as it develops.

Hey G - did you get going with the Locost suspension and De Dion?

Well done Andy, its good that you still go back to your projects and update us with the information as you do it. Thats going to be a well sorted car when your finished. Shame your going to sell it (how much are you going to be looking for ;) ), but if you dream of a Alfa powered BType/B+, you have to do it :D

The disappointment is that I am not discussing driving impressions and what a great day out etc. or what changes I have since finishing the car.....

Still although it was a cold day the sun shone and I managed to get quite a bit of work done - Both the left and right front suspension has been modified - pictures on the site soon - basically I have moved the chassis rail over 1.5" so they come off the front rail at 90 degrees - this allows the shocker to mount onto a straight and not an angled chassis rail. Well the upshot is that the leverage is now correct and the 300lb front springs which were binding before they supported the car - now offer no deflection at all when preloaded 2"

This allows me to lower the car on the adjustable platforms by any amount I require - an I have calulated that I need only 0.75" pre-load to give me the necessary 1" suspension drop. which will give me 4.0" clearance on the chassis on the 205/60/13's which I hope to increase to 4.5" with the use of some 185/70/13's. because the car will need new boots for the MOT.

This does not leave much room for the sump - which is at the moment a tarmac scraping 2" below the chassis - yep 2 inches or so off the ground. Lucky the 300lbs front springs are pretty darn stiff so even with me leaping around on the front of the car it only gives 1.5" or so - or nothing!! with the dampers wound to the stops...

So I must say at the moment its sitting quite pretty - with minimal gap in the arches with a nice low look.

I need to drill new bonnet mount mounting holes to lower the front of the bonnet becasue the original builder had raised the bonnet height to clear the pinto Filler - I have modified the Pinto rocker cover to have the filler at the back and mounted the Radiator sufficently low to miss the bonnet so I can lower it down which will further reduce the front wheel arch gap.

Coming along nicely

It should have a very nice retro 70's feel to it - with the American Racing type alloys and the black paintwork - I am even tempted to go for the primer grey type colour for the wheel centres which will match a grey soft top I have for the car.

Next bit of welding is the diagonal for the roll bar together with a removable strut that will fit forward to the passenger foot well chassis rail. So even though the car will be sold pretty soon after completion there will be no corners cut as to what I wanted to achieve with it.

Had it running up over the weekend as well - and it does sound rather nice as well - although it should breath better as I also have a very smart big bore 4 branch for it that I need to fettle to get it to side exit into the Westie silencer.

Hmm when I list all the things that are around for that car - rebuilt 2.0L Pinto bottom end - ported head - twin 45 dellorto's set of KN Diamonds / set of US Rocket Racing Alloys. 38 DGAS - two 4 branch manifolds.

Hmmm - Might just take my time looking for that Alfa B+ :D