Hijinx brought up the idea of having a spot to resolve the growing differences between the two boards and actually discussing the matter now. This thread won't be active forever, it shouldn't have to be. It'll be open long enough to actually handle the issues. At this point, so many people probably have some say in the matter. While representatives might work for some of you, (if you can discuss with those who might be in the same exact position as you) you aren't going to be forbidden from posting here if you don't. However, don't assume that this is going to be a chance for bashing or insults. If people do that, you'll be kicked out of the discussion here. That won't fix anything. You may bring up issues and discuss them calmly.

First off, I would like to say a few words.

April Fools. Yes, we spammed up a couple places. Some ask why we don't "spam our own board". Why is there such division? Main and Subs shouldn't be this seperate; they're both ".hack//DIVERGENCE", they're both the same game with the same players.

History. In the beginning, there was Main. Divergence was the main storyline, and (according to Nall's original plan), was intended to stay that way. Then people decided they weren't entirely satisfied with the central plotline. They wanted to go off on their own. Gingitsune appeased them with the creation of the subplot section of glasscharm. This section grew in popularity until it's membership was such that it overtook Gingi's bandwidth limit, crashing the site for a month. When this happened, the Subplots Invision board was created to handle the load.

Originally, subplots was just for people to make thier own stories without breaking the bandwidth of the main board. They were still looked at as the same site. Subs just happened to become a starting point, a place where people could "warm up", get used to the rules and everything, before they joined the main plotline.

Somewhere during all this, somethung turned sour. The two boards have been seperated, and there is a lot of ill-will floating around. There are people who don't even know WHAT Main is, let alone that it was, and is, the foundation of Divergence.

This is a problem. Main plot used to be better, I know this. Over the years, posting quality has improved dramatically across the board. As a result, speed has decreased and membership has dropped. Subplots gained it's few die-hard "Main Haters", who seem to work non-stop to turn main into something evil. People forget that Main is the start. People forget that this is all a game. People are taking this division way too seriously.

And now, Main has to fight for it's new members. Interest, advertisement, it's all squashed. Even when some people make the choice to join main, they are harassed by people who dislike it, who try to convince them to come back. No one even gives us a chance anymore.

I would like to use this chance to try to determine how we can restore these two boards into the one cross-site game it used to be.

Some people would say, "why don't you close down that site and come to this one?" First off, with relations such as they are, those few of us making the change would be scorned. Secondly, the glasscharm.org site has been the home and root of Divergence since it's creation; it is filled with memories, traditions. Gingitsune has paid out of her own pocket to keep that site running for those few of us who remember; in her eternal graciousness, she has allowed it to continue to exist when she could at any time have simply stopped, cancelled it, closed it down. The very Creator of Divergence chooses that board as her home. Closing it down is virtually not an option.

The same holds true for this board. There are many traditions, memories, figures and legends that exist here; I think I speak accuratly when I say it would be impossible to simply close this board and come back to the main site, even if the bandwidth could handle it.

I know some people hold some animosity towards me, and I to them. This happens in any large society such as this one, in life or online; we can't all always get along. I accept this. What I have found unacceptable, is how tarnished we have become because of maliciously spread rumors. How we have been referred to as a disease. I can honestly say I am the oldest member of this forum activity-wise; even Nall, Gingi, and the others who joined before me have taken breaks from the site, vacations, and so forth. I've seen this grow and have been powerless to stop it. I am moderator on Main plot, I and co-GM with Nall, and yet I hold no authority here. The same goes for Nall. Even Gingi, in trying to be kind, trying to make everyone happy, has lost power.

Some of you have used changes in attitude as an example of how Main "corrupts" players; How Reinier for example, "was a nice kid" in subs, but is different now that he's a member of Main. Sure, one way of looking at it is that he's been corrupted by us; but what about this? What about the public opinion of main? Why could not his attitude have been changed by seeing the truth past the rumors and lies?

Back to the april fools thing. Even I will admit, what was done was a bit over-the-top. But then, a lot of us didn't find the whole "pendant" thing to be funny at all; even from my point of view, it was posted before it was even april fools day for half the membership, if not all of it. And there was a lot of other things going on as well; and yet it was only the main plot members who recieved bans.

Tokki at one point mentioned; Sure, it went over the top; but it shows how subs has become such a humorless place. A year ago, it would be taken all in stride. In a way, it was well-deserved. It's served to bring to light some problems that need to be solved.

I myself have contemplated this for some time. I've watched the split between the boards and been unable to do anything about it. Because I have spent nearly all my time in Main, I will admit I am slightly biased. But I still want this to be solved; my goal with this is to share my opinions and see what others offer. Ideally, with the end of this thread, we can have all the opinions sheared away and the facts revealed. Hopefully with that, we can come to a resolution.

I have noticed that both Asura and Wren take every oppertunity to insult main that comes up, just somthing that seems to stick out like a sore thumb. I think their constant downput of main could be whats only increased this problem.

also, people change, not always just because where they go. hac is a mainer, i chose him to be, but he is normal as ever. people who go to main dont become "bad people," they just see things in a diffrent perspective.

I have good friends on both main an subs, and really i havnt seen any reason for this fighting. It seems to have started with people insulting main, then main insulting back, and then just growing out of control.

If you dont like main, then thats your opinion to keep. but please, dont be shoving it in everyones face whenever main is mentioned. And if mainers dont like subs, well frankly it just has to be put up with. neither side is on a clean slate, that means neither side should be pointing to the other saying its "their fault"

Just to set that out on the table, just incase people do start putting blame. This topic should be about resolving the issue, not saying whos better than another.

Yes, I agree that we should have a discussion about all of this. Speaking of Main...I'm one of their newest members and truthfully...before I joined everyone was telling me Main was bad...that I shouldn't join it. One of my Divvy friends went as far as threatening our friendship, saying that if I joined, I'd change and we couldn't be friends anymore...*frowns* The majority of my clan are 'Main Haters' ...so of course when they found out that I was considering joining Main they tried their best to fill my head with lies.


Of course, being me, I planned to give it a fair chance. So despite all the bad things that I heard, I still joined.

Anyways, since I've joined, I've found out that all the bad things that I'd heard about Main is false. Sure they've had their problems...but all of them are fixed. Main is just like Subs now.

I, myself, like Main and see nothing wrong with it. I plan to stay there.

I just wish my friends from subs would stop spreading lies to other potential Mainers and let them see for themselves how it is. ....and I wouldn't mind if they'd stop harrassing me to quit.

As for the April Fools spamming...I've noticed also that members from Subs can spam and the topic just gets locked... however, when Mainers spam in Subs, ya'll get all defensive and want us to get punished. . Sure maybe it got a little out of hand, and the two sides started bickering again in the spam topic. ...but go back and look who insulted who first. Just think about that....

That's all I have to say on the matter... *walks away*

EDIT - No...Chase, I didn't mean Lyra... I was referring to Asura. If you check the spam topic...he threw the first insult.

I only have a few things to say about this. The thing is; why do you hate us? I have no idea what we did wrong. Sure main can be odd at times and it is slower, but are you mad at the higher level ratio or what? Really; do you not like the hacks we have or the structured plot? I also want to bring to everyone's attention that the person who controls Pendant is a member of Subs; so just because Nall and Reinier spammed to make Lyra made doesn't mean we're the evil ones. Remember who caused all the chaos yesterday before you blame everything on us.

I hope you don't mean Lyra closing the Pie topic. Because that was like H4XOR's /\/\0053 topic ages ago. If H4XOR gets his spammish topic closed, shouldn't Nall? I mean, Nall's on Main and H4XOR's a subber, but if there's no difference, it's fair, isn't it?

And the second board was against the rules in two ways-- it was
1) Spammish
2) An Attention-getter--one of those 'Do you hate me?' topics that always gets closed. (And the "don't spam" thing is in there, too.)

So I don't see why it shouldn't have been closed.

And it's not like I hate Reinier or Nall... I've never really talked to Nall, so I have to reason to hate him, and Reinier is my 'friend' but... Well, when Lyra first removed him from the clan, I didn't agree, but now... Sorry, Reinier, I kinda do. I know you were probably trying to get back at her, and such, but it's not the right way to do it. >> And it's probably better if you don't do it anyway.



And just so I'm on topic... Maybe we should have a... big... get-togeather event... or something... Though the 2nd Anniversary Party is kinda that...

EDIT}} About the Pendant thing... Pendant's in a lot of trouble now. A lot of us knew it was a joke, atleast I hope so, so I don't understand why everyone's freaking out. Do you think that Gingi, Rayo, Lyra, Cypher or Phoenix would just give Pendant admin powers, if he's just a Pawn Shop character? And he couldn't have gotten them himself unless he was a hacker.
Yes, I know it was a Subs member that started it, but you can't go around saying that Subs is crazy because of what one member did. And we're not, (atleast I'm not) going around saying members of Main are idiots because of what a few members did... You're kind of going against what you're preaching there...

EDIT @ ROSE}} But that was after 5 pages of mindless spam. I honestly think they deserved it after that. 5 pages of spam.

EDTI # LUGIA}} You know, I just went to get my pretzels and I thought of that. Why can't we go spam Main? Not saying I would, but Main can come to Subs, but Subs can't go to Main?

EDIT @ ALL}} And it seems Main has turned into a place you go to when you're 'good enough' and that kinda... proves Lugia's point... about being arrogant, I suppose. No, not everyone's like that, I agree, and infact, most probably aren't. But some are very, very much so, and it can leave a big impression on people.

That was Xantos that made it and it was closed.

Then why is it that Subbers can't just go to Main and spam the heck out of it?

They got their topic closed down. The Mainers got punished, because, frankly, shouldn't they know better than that? They're the one's who are suppose to be "setting an example" for us, so shouldn't they act more mature?

If we're a humorless place, then why do you insist on coming back here and trying to bring humor back to us? Wouldn't the humorlessness of it all just make it not worth it?

Well, for me personally, it's the fact that everyone in Main acts so arrogant. When someone goes over to Main, they become extremely arrogant. I'm probably not the only one who seen this, and it's probably not the best reason to hate Main, but it's just my opinion that I'm throwing around.

Ah, but didn't one of your posts one day say something along the lines, "If a leader shuts off all those who voice their objection against his opinion, he shuts off one of his only ways to improve?"

Sidenote, that was done long before yesterday. Whether this was planned from that long ago or it was just coincidence, I don't know.

that is true, but remember subs has no control over main and main has no control over subs. because if we complain our leaders dont have any control to make changes, it makes it rather pointless.

and what i was reffering to is when someone mentioned main, some people came out and listed every reason they could think of that main was bad. Does that sound reasonable? I understand if people have complaints, but not a systematic assult on main.

And your view is commonly shared lugia, many view main as arrogant, but in return main views subs just the same to some extent. Cant we figure out what each side is for real? and not just what we currently think?

Everyone doesn't act arrogant... My close Divvy friends say that I haven't changed. I'm still the same person. The only difference is that I can't quest with my Sub Divvy friends... the problem is...most people think we're arrogant before they meet us, and when we do meet ya'll over AIM for instance, right from the start, alot of subbers talk to us differently and are colder. I've had several instances where people have taken something that I've said wrong. Thinking that I'm being sarcastic...when in actuality I'm not. That is how bad it is...

Ex. I once said...'take your time in posting. I don't want it to be my turn yet.'

...a person looked at that as sarcasm, when I was telling the truth. It took forever to get them to realize that.

All Mainers aren't the same...

*gathers his papers*

Main is a party surrounding a long-standing and changing story in the Main board. It has different moderators and the freedom to alter its board in ways that can't be done in Subplots, because the whole board is dedicated to a single storyline. That, to a certain extent, is good. It reflects the differences in reality that they're allowed.

One of the main problems with Main may be the bridge connecting it to Subplots. All changes that take on a character in one will also count on the other side. For example, Alice gains levels that raise her level on both boards. It can be summarized as one character for both boards. I'll get straight to the point. The assignments of hacks, levels, and items in Main isn't balanced in the same way as Subplots. In addition, there are cases in which there are reasons to suspect Main intentionally upsets certain balances for its own benefit.

Say, Alice gets to level 15 in Subplots. She then goes to Main, where she readily gains 10 levels with little effort. No one sucks their thumb or sleeps in a crib here. Even some people who have been there will attest that some, though certainly not all rewards, have been exaggerated. I won't lie. When I see a level 30+ Mainer, I suspect some of the levels are made out of thin air. There are quest rewards that people can see for themselves as being inflated or even seriously wrong. Conversely, bringing Cypher to Main to judge the quests should have fixed that. I haven't been tracking recent results, but when it first happened the rewards spoke for themselves. Most got a single level for their writing. Alice then wants to participate in some Subplot events where she can gain an edge through her heightened level. It need not be levels either. There are obvious benefits to bringing a Summon Fire, an Emperor's Soul, a Healing Elixir, or a Noble Wine to duels.

The above items might be unknown to some. Summon Fire is a level 1 fire summon scroll. Only three summon scrolls have been given out in Subplots. Emperor's Souls restore full SP. Never given out. Healing Elixirs restore full HP and have never been given out either. Noble Wine restores full HP and SP, never handed out. The advantage of having any of those is noticeable and I don't have to rely on theory to point out situations in which they've appeared. At the beginning of the doubles tournament, several of those items made coincidental appearances in a new Main shop and at bargain prices.

On that note, isn't it interesting that the Black Market on Main, where the powerful items showed up, also had other little gifts? Special class weapons that only a particular member in Main could use appeared twice. High level weapons for normal classes made peculiar appearances and could be bought by anyone, even if they didn't have a high enough level to use the weapons. No work involved, just having enough GP in their pockets. Level 20+ at bargain prices, of course. Later on, the shop was changed. Now anyone who has a Silver Card (shopping card, price 3000 GP) can request two items to be stocked. Any two common items, no level limits. One of those items then shows up randomly for two days. Who wouldn't want to pin down that amazing overpowered common weapon, such as the Starstorm Wand or the Ends of Earth?

Lets not forget the absurd hacks that people can get a nice view of at the Battle Royale thread, and the others that have appeared since. Some of these examples aren't present there, while others are. A full set of custom armor. The ability to see anything, even through walls. (In principle, this is fine, but with other abilities on top...) The use of super speeds to arrive anywhere within seconds, without a downside. (The owner of that hack may argue that there is one. However, during the Battle Royale he ran two dungeon floors in a post and stated that he/she was still in top condition. The ability is known for irritating some Mainers.) The ability to manipulate all elements, combine them, and turn them into physical manifestations. An array of weapons of any class at your disposal, each one of a fixed element, including special non-standard elements that are actually other people's hacks. A hacked custom weapon, which is just a "temporary" one until you can get the following better custom one. A corrupted level which also allows you to have technically infinite SP. Custom classes with their own overpowered attacks.

Presumably, those hacks stay on Main. Unfortunately, Mainers really want to have their hacks accepted in Subplot events. There have been notable consequences to those situations. It was a situation before, though perhaps not now, that Mainers wanted to travel freely between the two boards with their hacks on as well. Originally, the condition of "No Mainers Allowed" sufficed for security, but eventually the restriction on hacks had to be implemented because Mainers could move to Subplots and use their abilities. The hacks aren't really a problem as much as a nuisance, but Mainers have taken up new solutions to their lacks of hacks. The meaningless level numbers and thin-air items work well because Rayo can't restrict them for the most part. Some Main items also trickle their way down to Subplot players who haven't been to Main. *raises four highly-destructive cards* I've limited them to story usage because they're too strong to use on normal players without it being dishonorable.

I tack the problem to a lack of rule enforcement and equality with Subplots. Main is just another party, it shouldn't be given extra levels and then expect them to be worth the same in Subs. It doesn't have the same meaning or prestige as it did some time ago. That, even some Mainers, will admit. Gingitsune doesn't watch over Main because she's busy. There is technically an absence of objective governance and Rayo doesn't have a say there. People can simply make up an item and write it down in their signature. As long as it isn't very powerful, it might not be noticed. I saw that once, along with a case of someone writing up their own level. We ban for that offense. Is it fair to Claire who won an event for her rare item, competing against others, if Alice can easily get it at Main for enough GP, sufficient asking, or a quest? I'm sure some people don't realize they were once rewarded 30K+ GP worth in items.

This is a game, but Main can easily be marked off as a cheat code for the game with how easily the normal limits are avoided. Main may have started the board but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong. The whole defense of "Main is the start. Main is good. Main does nothing." is a sort of denial attitude towards the problems that take place. Not only item-wise, but also in terms of player relationships. There are good Mainers and there are bad ones.

The issue of marking off Mainers is not without reason. I've come across a lot who've been very rude. The Battle Royale and all the attitudes people got to see is probably the most obvious example of why some Mainers are disliked. Even some Mainers themselves dislike the others over the stat abuses and the ways they act. That says something about a tight group that is given its own board, supposedly superior, and therefore deserving of hacks and pets. In addition, it's very possible some Mainers feel no reservations about insulting people because of a fact. They can only be banned from Subplots and none of their rewards depend on the administrators that can punish them. There is, in effect, very little anyone can do to punish them. Alice could insult people and all she could suffer at worst is a ban from Subplots. Yet her rewards come from Main and she need not care. It doesn't have to be a theoretical situation. Most people should know at least one example and I've personally gone through a few. I had one saved in the burnt computer that showed off creative uses of the F word.

Due to the severe division that exists, I have attempted to find a solution that would bring equality back to the mixture. In my investigations of sites that mimic Divergence but grant excessive liberties, I noticed that they're just like... guess what board. To the point that I've realized Main has to be absorbed into Subplots or separated. I'm certain it wouldn't accept a full administrative change. Separation wouldn't stop Main from deeming Subplot rewards as valid, but it would mean Main rewards would have no worth in Subplots. Players would be able to take a deep breath and think that they're now getting their works-worth from quests, and that some Alice isn't getting 10 levels for her 2-level writing.

Don't suggest the situation is non-existent. The phrase "I can just go to Main for a few levels and hacks, then come back." is present in people's minds because it's happened. I'd also point out to Crimson Rose that saying she's a Mainer and that she must be arrogant is going to obviously mismatch, because she joined pretty recently. Maybe recently enough not to have gotten to quest much, if any, yet. Though as I noted, even I know some Mainers who are civilized.

Meh...I don't got much to say being pressed for time, so I'll say just a little bit I guess. Alot of peope in Subs do hate main, and I've heard many different reasons. The only reason I can think of right now is that main is well....basically cheap. I go by the thought of not believing anything until you see it, and one of my goals when I joined the site was to get into main myself, so I won't really judge until I witness the little "quirks," and "cheap" main-ish ways myself. I get alot of my posting idea's from main anyways... Look at my first quest ever, then at the Figgy recruitment, then at my short two person quest with blackwitchkazumi. After I read Reiniers, and Tokki's posts in main I sorta...well snatched their posting qualities and added a little of my own xD.

That's besides the point however. I don't want to diss main cause I do think highly of it alot, but the spamming was a bit much...<_< I mean, I got the joke...I was laughing like hell as well, but it really went off the wall. *points at the wall* It's cracked goddamit! It's gonna take forever to fix that! *cough*...And ya know...for some reason I forsaw this happening...The upspurge in Mainers coming back to subs, the upsurge of people joining main...-_-. Well, one more thing. The arrogance, and high and mighty attitude some people get does run clear from the joining of zis being we call-ish ze main. A prime example would be well....uh..nevermind...<_< I don't wanna say names. However, not everyone from main is like that, I can name my little batch of muffins, but everyone knows who they are^^. Well theirs my idiotic views, taste it and melt in it's delicous juices and spices...

See, I don't really have anything against the mainers. There area only a few (they know who they are, and why they are disliked) who I dislike, and I don't know a lot of the other ones. From what I've seen, the ones that drift back here seem to want to come back and push in our faces that they are better than us. To name names, Reiner, seems to find himself above the mods. (from what I've seen) He likes to think that because he is a mainer, he is god. I know that this doesn't apply to all mainers, but still, he was one of the ones that participated in the chaos that happened yesterday. And didn't Asura just say something along the lines of,

Yet it was Reinier who flamed back,

So who was it who flamed? Sure, Asura stated his opinion, but that didn't mean that Reiner needed to lower his level to flame back. Everyone was wrong! Asura a little less because it wasn't so much directed as a flame, and more of a question asking them to stop, even if it wasn't so nice.

There, I have put in my two cents worth. I don't know if I sounded flammy, but I didn't mean to. I'm not going to sasy how I've seen two mainers disrespect mods behind their backs, as I know that all of the clan leaders pretty much know what I am talking about.

Not really...the biggest example would be Phoenix. The man is practically the same. I put myself along with Phoenix.

We are ONE people. Subbers and mainers are words...like black and white. We all are a human race, we all are one body of RP'ers following the .hack series adding our own spice, calling it Divergence.

I am on neither side, truly, in all of this. I love subs, and I love main. And I also have qualms against both. Though people here on subs may have their reasons for disliking main that go beyond the reasons I think most people dislike it, I think the main reason why people dislike the board is very simple and easy to point out.

Also, there are reasons why people on main dislike a lot of the people on subs, but their reasoning is basically founded on one or two main things as well.

I for one hold somewhat of a dislike towards a couple things on main.

1) The storyline. Even though Nall and Nighthand assure that the shallowness of the plot isn't as shallow as we think it is, and that it all is "part of a master plan", it still looks like it's being made up and thrown together as it goes along. Not to mention, many of the "strengths" of it's enemies are very cliche and overdone, and don't give it a very original feel. There is no way for anyone to branch of, and or "think" on their own without guidance from Nall, who quite frankly is very seldom reachable.

I am willing to put up with what I believe is an extreme weakness on the main site because I love the people there, I think there are some very talented, and dedicated roleplayers on the site, and I love that all of the riff-raff and noise (Which isn't always a bad thing, it's basically people doing things non-related to the main storyline whatsoever), is seperate from it. You can focus solely on the storyline everyone is involved in.

2) This was once a big problem of mine, but has since gotten a little bit better in my eyes. The hacks. Yes, I understand that it's unfair to think only a couple people can have them, and everyone else can't-- but giving them out in such a massive amount kills the originality of a hacked character. Sometimes it doesn't-- some people actually do have well-planned, in depth stories behind their character hacks, but some people just throw them together, and give little to no thought at all to their character's "specialty", cheapening it, in my eyes.

A lot of people think that the hacks shouldn't exist at all. Or that the hacks should be much less powerful. I personally think that the hacks shouldn't have been explosively given away like they are now, but I think it could have been done much better if the hacks had been planned more in depth and some means of control had been placed on them. Some people have incorporated measures of control to their own hacks, like Lights, who's hack starts out pretty ambiguous in it's fucntion, and very weak in terms of self-empowerment, but is very, very team oriented. There are players like Zan and I who believe in a hack starting out seeming powerful, but having drawbacks, and/or not being easily handled by it's user until they have better control over it in higher levels.

Other people I don't see their hacks starting out with veritable "drawbacks" at all. Yes, they do evolve, but they evolve from "powerful" to "godly". I, personally, don't see mine as a "powerful-to-godly" example. I think people just take it that way because I am good at handling it as far as writing is concerned. Maybe they all forget that I've had my hack for 21 levels, and there is plenty of reason behind Tokki being very good at handling it herself in character.

As for views that main has towards the subplot boards, I think they're all based on a couple things:

1) People who dislike main for those two previous reasons instead of trying to help the situation, or put in positive input on trying to make the imbalance of power/seemingly shallow storyline better, they trash it, put it down, and desert it. I think Nighthand has a good point when he says that people ditching the site, and spreading horror stories about it is not a good way to help the main story improve and be better for everyone. It is simply making it worse, and making it struggle even more.

The subplotters that have this discontentment for main spread this overall discontent, and make main the poorly-viewed place it is today. I, for one, remember a time when main was much different. Hacks were pretty much extremely rare, and VERY story oriented (with the exception of Nalls, but at that time I viewed Nall's hacks as storyline tools-- his ability to know what was coming up ahead explaining how he could tell everyone what to expect for story purposes). Now, the hacks have meager "solo-quests" that supposedly explain the entire story behind their character going from normal to absolutely uber-powerful.

This definitely could be done better. I also don't think just EVERYONE should be able to obtain a hack. It should be well thought out, earned completely, and deserved. Not just deserved because you are "in main."

But these are just my thoughts. I'm sure there are plenty who disagree with me.

2) Another problem mainers have with the people on subs is a general belief that the site is far too uptight for it's own good. There is a line, I believe, that can be drawn here, however. There are the admins, and the older generation of subbies that know about main and may have their own reasons for disliking it, and the people who really don't know about main and hear about it through the negative rantings of the "main-haters". This is not a good way to maintain positive relations between the sites.

I think the best way to improve relations is as follows:

1) People on main need to be open to change. The admins need to accept, or be more open to making the site better and understanding it's flaws.

2) The people on subs need to not be so quick to abandoning the site, and spreading ill-received word about it. Main has made improvements to trying to get better. At one time, one of the biggest problems was that Nall was the only person who could move the story forward, and when he was gone, we stayed still for weeks at a time. New GMs and Admins have been appointed to help that. At one time, people had huge problems with people on main gaining WAY too many levels for a single quest. This has been fixed, as Cypher is very strict on his grading. Main is trying to improve-- but when people abandon it at first sign of things going sour, it can't get better. No matter what.

This has been "hopefully helpful words" from,

- Tokki :tokki:

Being pretty new to //DIVERGANCE, I hope I can offer a fairly fresh perspective on everything. I still have a generally unbiased point of view, and keeping that in mind, this is what I've observed:
Upon joining, Main is introduced as the place where the "better" posters go. You have to be "accepted" into it. While it's true that a person must also be accepted into subs, as long as they listen to pointers from Rayo or whoever they can keep working on thier application until it's up to standards (which really aren't all that high to begin with).
With Main, tryouts are held maybe once ever 6 months, if that. Lots of people might try, but only those who are "worthy" get in. Sometimes a person will be pointed out and offered the chance to join Main. The parallel I think of here is a secret society of sorts. Main is the elite, and a lot of people new to //DIVERGANCE don't know much more than that.
Part of the reason we don't know about it is because it's on an entirly differant site. There is no link at the top of the subs saying "Back to the Main Site!" The location of Main is not strictly seceret, but those who know the address are generally encouraged "not to spread it around". Also, it's impressed on us that we should NEVER, under ANY circumastances make an account on Main unless invited. (This may be exagerating things a bit, but that's what it feels like. I mean, Cypher even wrote it in some sort of gigantic bold font.) This just enforces the "secret socitey" idea.
Mainers, upon being accepted, are no longer really allowed to quest with subbers. It doesn't gain them levels or items (actually, I'm not sure on this. I think I read that somewhere, but I might be wrong). And to stay In-Character, they can't log out or act like normal players anymore. A lot of times, they have really cool "hacks" that subbers aren't allowed to have. They seem to have a differant way of getting levels, and lots of them have incredibly high levels that subbers can only dream about. Mainers oft seem to stay in Main after being accepted, and don't interact a lot with subbers (although quite a few stay in both).
Subbers, on the other hand, don't have one central plot. They do thier own things, a lot like the real .hack game would be. They make up thier own storylines with PKers or hackers or AIs or other interesting things. Instead of being a "sub-plot" to the main plot, they have thier own personal main plot. They don't even know what the Main plot IS because they may not even know where Main is, and it's not exactly accessable.
What Subbers can find out about Main often comes from people who are against it for one reason or another. Lyra, Asura, others say things about Main that are less than complimentary. And how are we to know the truth? Main is the secret society of the elite, after all. And some mainers really are arrogant, and seem to feel that they're superior to subbers because they got accepted, and the "lowly subber" didn't.
The answer, therefore, is to make Main really the Main plot, the Main site. Let everyone join Main... but keep the "acceptance" simular to the way it is when someone wants to join subs. Just make it much stricter.. as in, 5 people want to join Main. They post thier applications, then are given a short "test quest" here on the subplot boards to test thier posting quality and reliability. A lot like they way most clans have members join. This quest can also be what links them into the Main plot, with the hackers and whatever else goes on. If posting quality is good throghout the quest, then the person is allowed to join Main. This means a lot of people putting time into the accepting/rejecting process that the subplot mods do already, but I'm sure there are some people who might be willing to do it.
This might also bring a change to the way posting is done in Main. I don't know exactly how it IS done, so I don't know exactly how it would change. But with a lot more people in Main, things might possibly get confusing. Still, the other option is to openly admit the "elite society" mindset, which will eventually end up with many more "Main-haters" on subs.

EDIT: And.. wow. That ended up sounded completely biased after all, didn't it?
Well, it's not. I still think getting on Main is a good mark of being able to roleplay well... I just feel that the general way Main is shown is as a mysterious and elite group of roleplayers. And, there are some people from Main who seem to spread that feeling, instead of trying to remove it.
EDIT 2: My suggestions for a possible solution are in red now.

How many of you subplotters (and Mainers) have ever gone and spammed a copy site? Were you not punished for it and told never to do it again because we didn't want to escalate things into a full out war?

There's one oversight here so far: The hatred is not only between subs and main. It's often even just between clans. What should be just a friendly rivalry goes overboard. I, personally, am friends with all the other clan leaders, with the exceptions of Zavier and Sydofh. The latter are simply because I don't know them very well, so I don't think I can call them friends yet. Anyone who remembers the state of the board a year ago knows that there was a point where Wren and Asura were at Rayo and my necks, and vice-versa. Times change. As I've repeated almost every time a problem comes up, people can change.

When I first joined Divergence, I wanted to go to main. Then, one day, I realized that a lot of people were going to main and forgetting about subs, leaving their friends behind. That was the thing that made me not want to go to begin with -- I knew that some of my friends, and later clan members, probably would never get into Main, and I didn't want to leave them behind, since I could no longer quest with them if I joined Mainplot. I started my clan as a group that cared about friendship and being together, rather than being the best and getting to main. The Figment Raiders' "No going to main!" rule started out as a pact between the original members to never abandon one another. Now, all but three of those original members have abandoned the site completely. It makes everything feel kind of pointless, now.

This is the point where people may start disagreeing to me. I ask that you read the whole thing before you start yelling though.

After this rule had already been passed, I watched a few very strange things happen that led me to believe Main was corrupted. First was the Invitational. The only subplot players that reached round 2 did so because they dueled other subplotters. Those remaining didn't last long. This only seemed suspicious to me because some of these subplotters were good enough that Main had asked them to join, and many of the scores seemed to have unreasonable justification. One thing connected in my mind: the judge was a Mainer. After Tokki had won the tournament, and I realized that the judge seemed to have a little too much interest in her, I started getting angrier. I kept my comments to myself though, speaking about it only to a few of my friends.

I have many strong moral beliefs; hell, after all, I'm a conservative. I was raised in a family where you don't swear, you don't have sex before marriage, you don't drink, you don't fail any classes, and you don't speak with your mouth full. Failure to adhere to these rules meant being locked in the house indefinitely. I've been pretty much stuck inside this house since I was 12, which is a pretty good indicator to what kind of social skills I have and why I wound up on Divergence in the first place. I think I speak for many of us when I say that our reasons for being in The World are much like Subaru's: it gives us a freedom we wouldn't otherwise have.

Enter my first real issues with Main. Yes, Tokki (as she used to be) was the original thing that made me pissed at Main. At 16, I still wasn't aware that other people had different morals than me. I'd been taught that having a child out of wedlock was wrong, and had witnessed the worst case scenario first hand: My own father, who was not married to my mother, fled from her and my lives when she would not abort me. She later died, leaving me to be adopted by her parents, who have raised me since. Outraged that someone would bring a child into this world without knowing for certain both parents would be around, I yelled at her about it, even publicly denounced her in chats. Yes, by now, I know that her situation is very commonplace. At the time, I was unaware, and I was supported by my friends, which made me confident in my arguments.

One of my friends got on Tokki's nerves particularly badly. Tokki banned her for it. She had right to be angry, yes, but I believed, and still do, that what was on the site should stay on the site, and what wasn't should stay off it. Later, after Tokki's boyfriend deleted some members using her account, she left. He too was a Mainer, and the fact that they did these things and got away with it stuck in my mind for quite some time.

Please note that in recent weeks, Tokki returned, and she and I now get along fine. My attitudes towards assorted things have changed, and her once egotistical attitude is all but gone. The above issues are in the past, so please don't make me regret telling the whole story, especially when I admit that I could be seen as the villain.

As the old moderators and admins quit, vanished, or were taken out for being overly lazy (as I know will someday be my fate), replacements were chosen. Wren and I became Moderators, because we were on frequently and Rayo felt we'd be right for the job. This is the point in time where Main and Subplots really became split. There was no longer one set of people moderating them both, so the standards for the two split at this point in time. That's what I believe has caused the problems between Main and Subs to persist this long, because it allowed Main to begin doing things that the subplotters, mostly the Admins, found incorrect. These I will get to in a moment.

The problem I want to point out now is Reinier. As I've said before, I loved him to death when he joined, mostly because his sister had been one of my favorite clan members. However, I'd apparently neglected to address the "we don't go to main" pact with him, and I got mad when he wanted to go. I let him go anyway, though, after some dispute with the other clan members. He and I continued to get along well, playing cards and talking frequently, though we argued at times.

Main was getting out of control, in my opinion. Hacks were getting to be insanely strong and pets were being added, as was a black market. By now, it was these things that were the draw of becoming a Mainer. It was no longer the honor of knowing you were one of the best posters, at least not for most people. Instead, it had become a way of getting above the system, of not really having to work to get strong items and be powerful. I had hoped that Reinier was above this, but one day... (January 17 of this year, to be exact. Keep in mind that this was shortly after the humongous argument over whether or not the Pawn Shop riddles were fair)
ODDLynna (8:33:38 AM): meh!
HypocriticalHero (8:34:16 AM): Yarg
HypocriticalHero (8:34:38 AM): What's up?
ODDLynna (8:35:34 AM): nothing
ODDLynna (8:35:40 AM): just terrorizing the GD
HypocriticalHero (8:37:39 AM): Funness.
ODDLynna (8:37:44 AM): yes.
HypocriticalHero (8:37:52 AM): Poor Chase... she's so scured...
HypocriticalHero (8:37:59 AM): She forgot to put an SP count...
ODDLynna (8:39:15 AM): ouch
HypocriticalHero (8:39:30 AM): Yeah, even I knew that and I've nevered dueled.
HypocriticalHero (8:40:28 AM): My hack's get skills. ::w00t::
HypocriticalHero (8:42:26 AM): Did you read my tourny post?
ODDLynna (8:46:24 AM): nope
HypocriticalHero (8:46:34 AM): Oh, okay.
HypocriticalHero (8:55:03 AM): ::There goes seeing well/bad he posted::
ODDLynna (9:01:18 AM): I'm eating breakfast
ODDLynna (9:01:20 AM): I'll read it after
HypocriticalHero (9:01:24 AM): Okay.
ODDLynna (9:01:28 AM): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet
HypocriticalHero (9:03:17 AM): Oh god...
HypocriticalHero (9:03:21 AM): Leet... naturally.
ODDLynna (9:08:19 AM): lol
HypocriticalHero (9:09:11 AM): What does a Healing Elixer do?
ODDLynna (9:11:20 AM): o.0 I dunno
HypocriticalHero (9:11:31 AM): It's gotta be good for 2000 GP...
ODDLynna (9:11:38 AM): I think Drink is 150, potion is 400, elixer is full
HypocriticalHero (9:14:31 AM): Yeah, it's full.
HypocriticalHero (9:15:32 AM): ::Wonders how much use a The Death would be::
ODDLynna (9:17:53 AM): dunno
HypocriticalHero (9:23:23 AM): God I love this black market...
HypocriticalHero (9:25:34 AM): Heh...
HypocriticalHero (9:25:53 AM): Nighthand gave Hac some Emperor's Soul's...
HypocriticalHero (9:35:22 AM): ::Doesn't know anymore:: The subs have the beautiful Saphyre... but Main has rares that don't require evil riddles...
ODDLynna (9:35:48 AM): because main is a bunch of cheaters
HypocriticalHero (9:36:00 AM): Yes we are.
HypocriticalHero (9:36:10 AM): I've come to grips with this.
HypocriticalHero (9:37:15 AM): What level's a sharp blade?
HypocriticalHero (9:37:26 AM): And is it worth buying it for 2000 GP?
ODDLynna (9:39:07 AM): go to hell
HypocriticalHero (9:39:15 AM): ::blink:: just asking...
ODDLynna (9:39:59 AM): "HypocriticalHero (9:36:00 AM): Yes we are.
HypocriticalHero (9:36:10 AM): I've come to grips with this."
ODDLynna (9:40:07 AM): thats what the go to hell is about
ODDLynna (9:40:20 AM): fucking bastard
HypocriticalHero (9:40:28 AM): So what if I don't have a father...?
HypocriticalHero (9:40:33 AM): What's that got to do with this...?
ODDLynna (9:41:53 AM): -.-;

As you can see, he and I were still getting along wonderfully when the convo began, but then... He hit the wrong buttons, and I knew he was being sucked into the problems there in Main. Shortly thereafter, Vera returned to the boards, and no sooner was she back than Reinier started laughing about asking Vera if the car that hit her was okay, apparently after Nighthand and Nall had offered him money for it. She was obviously upset over it, and he found himself removed from the Figment Raiders immediately. Zan spent a good hour talking me into allowing him back in, on probation (That conversation I still have saved, I unfortunately don't have the one that got him kicked in the first place). Reinier promptly spent the next 2 months seeing how far he could push me without getting kicked back out. I finally snapped some time last week and kicked him out. Since then, he and a member who was rejected from the Figment Raiders for flaming have spent most of their time sitting around in chat rooms talking about how evil and two faced I am.

I'm going to take this opportunity to say, yes, I have talked about people behind their backs. Who hasn't? Hypocrisy is the quality I hate most in people, primarily because its the quality I hate most in myself. Thats why I've felt guilty about kicking Reinier out of my clan, up until yesterday: because part of what he said about me was the truth. Yesterday, though, made my guilt vanish.

To correct something that was said in a chat yesterday: No, I do not hate everyone. I hate Reinier, Nighthand, Zan, and Domini. I have a strong dislike for Nall. Hijinx gets on my nerves frequently. I hate the pets, how out of control the hacks have gotten in main (hell, even some Mainers hate that, whats that say?), the way that certain Mainers pick on Hacorie (amongst others), the immaturity of many in this group that is supposed to be an example for the Subplotters, and the black market. Everything else I hate has nothing to do with the site at all, but can be said to include most my family, teenagers today, and a girl named Kaitlyn.

I've said already what I believe is wrong with main. The fact that there is no longer truly one person keeping it all in check means that they've gotten to do a lot of things that are at least a little bit out of control. Those in charge in main are much more lenient than Rayo and myself, creating a gap between the two boards, both in what is required for a level and what is allowed in terms of conduct. I believe that some of the Mainers have noticed this and it contributes to their arrogant behavior, as the others put it. However, I've come to a different conclusion than I had before writing this: Its not that Main changes people, its just that with the changes that have gone on there, it attracts a certain kind of person. There are still those, such as Crimson Rose (perhaps?) and Phoenix who have strived to get there because they want to better their posting. Unfortunately, they just aren't as loud or as noticeable as the few who have caused problems for subs.

Oh, and to note: We can't go spam Main because we don't have posting privileges there. They have posting privileges here because this is where the GD, clan boards, etc are.

Alright. It looks to me like we have a good foundation of mostly valid points.

Now, I'll put this forth; What can we do about it?

I'll take any suggestions, toss them around with the other "higher ups" and bring back results.

I ask for this section however, that you try not to write huge posts (like mine, tokki's, and lyra's were) to make it easier to address each issue.

Err...not an accurate statement...

Anyways, if anyone wants to give ideas, this is the time and place. You are part of a change.

Mod meetings?

I know Rayo and I've had our particular list of problems with main made for a while. If we could all get together once every 2 weeks or even just once a month, maybe we could keep things in check easier. Also, some of the things we find to be "out of control", you guys might have valid reasons for, so you could explain them then. I think we just need to re-unify the two sites; create links on each to the other, have one consistant governement between the two, so on.

XD We need democratic vote!

From what I've seen, separation isn't totally out of the question. If you add that GD and clan areas to the Main, it would eliminate the "superorists" from the rest of us, with the exception of the mods. If you did this, then while it could be segregation, it also may be viewed as unfair.

This whole thing has shattered this one's ideas of the perfect world that I thought was the Divergence board. I thought that we could peacefully co-exist with the main board. Now that I have seen this whole thing, I am re-thinking this naieve thought.

We may still be able to do this, even if we stop the interaction between the boards, that wouldn't stop the talk behind people's backs. So, I think that we should have the rule that if we see a Mainer spamming these boards, then we give them a warning, then we can ban them on their second offense, wheather it be an IP ban, or temporary, it should be something that should help with the co-existion.

This is a good plan, I can say that without even having to talk to Nall and Gingi and Cypher. In fact, there's a section on Main, "Mod and Admin Briefings" that hasn't ever been used; if we wanted we could use that for any sort of Q&A, or what have you.

Otherwise, I know Nall isn't an AIMer at heart, preferring MSN. I myself use AIM, MSN, and IRC now; any one works for me.

The only problem I see is getting everyone on at the same time; some of us keep difference schedules and such. -marks it on a list-

Oh, another thought. Those of use who don't already (which I think may only be me :blink: ) out of the mods should get accounts on main just so they can PM, since I know you guys don't always check up on subs very often. Either that or we should just resort to E-mail.

-nods- I know I'm on messengers a lot, but that's not the case for everyone...

Oh, and a couple things from before; I know the black market was a pretty bad idea. It started fine in our collective heads, as a place to obtain items that aren't in the (very) limited shops. The problem being that the idea didn't translate well. People only have a few things they want out of the huge selection of other things, and if we stocked the market with the, it becomes little more than a "I want, I get" sort of thing. I stopped that after a couple of time, and tried this new "request" system, where among the normal junk items in the market, people could put in two requests, and at an unannounced time one of the items would be placed in the market for a day or so; price undetermined how it would go. To reward those who check the site daily, and try to increase the activity of the players. Needless to say it didn't turn out very well and has pretty mcuh died at the moment, at least until kinks are worked out and it becomes feasible.

Hokay. I will try very, very, very, very hard (alright, so I'll half-ass it) to make this brief. I know little of what I talk about, never once participated in any of the events that made or broke these arguments(including the festival questions- which I was always too late to get one forX3) and I'm a bit too much on the -- *blink* Oh. The soapbox has been taken down. *bows* Here comes the Ignorant Majority, another little-known character piping up from the peanut gallery.

^^; I've never been in Main, per se, except for that first post of mine there with that lameass register for a character.:3 Unfortunately main had closed quite a bit before that so of course I was pointed nicely in the right direction...XD
That's one of the reasons they rather don't like you making Main accounts. You've not much reason to be there if you aren't from Main.
I remember thinking Main, as a newber, as a type of Mount Olympus; how excited me and several dozens of others felt (probably most everyone on at the time posted up in that thread that they were interested in joining Main), waiting for Nall & Co. to choose a few people to carry up in their chariot to the Big Boys- just a way to say 'hey, you really /are/ a better-than-above-average writer, wanna step over to our basketball court for a change in game?'. Gah, even now the well-wishing between players with the hopes of giving into Main in that thread give me fuzzies.XD I actually scored a few very good friends out of the 'good lucks', which I still have today. But, yesh, off the soapbox.
Compare that to today; where there had probably been a max of two 'mass mainings'.
I haven't seen even a /link/ to Main for MONTHS; there's not a link in subplots, none on the website, heck, even the 'enter the world' portal has switched to Subs. This sort of makes Subs seem more as a Main, and though Main is the ultimate icing on the cake for those who've more seasoned abilities and wish to follow a 'plotline', Subplot has become less of an appetizer and more of an entree. In anti-ramble, make it easier for people to find main, and mingle- on sub territory, without the spam. It's become more an Olympus than ever, in the fact I barely hear a breath of or about it except a snide comment. Also, the foul jabs on Subs BECOMES the truth to 'us', since that's all we know. Until some more of the Mainers tripped into our board just recently, I couldn't recognize any of them 'tall. They're as good as newbs to me in the sense of recognition; maybe if y'all skip-hop-boogey'd down more often we could see you and your shiney avys more frequently, and hate you from first-hand experience.:3 Kidding.

The hacks are not something I know about other than that they'r ethere and people think they're out of control. Still, managing them seems good. However, do NOT ever even THINK of handing some to subplotters- and I think it's a fine idea that mainers contribute in special events, just stripped of hacks. Might also be challenging to the mains as well since they have to adapt to removing luxuries they're used to. And maybe a pet OR hack rule would be nice, though like I said, I know not of the conditions so I'm not one to comment. *merf* But I also think the hacks are a nice side-bonus for joining Main, to distinguish you from subs. (Come off it; don't make us all the same by just being in different boards and the only difference being a mainplot. Add some spice to our monitor-light-bathed lives.XP) Maybe a few mini-events for Mainers only, that you'd have to use your hacks in a thought-provoking way or someodd would be a nice side-event. *shrug*

Having a few people running Main, one being a non-Mainer(mebbe?) or a past-but-not-anymore Mainer share the bulk, just so that they get a different point of view on things as well.
Daggit, rambling already. I'll run before the lynch mob runs after me for lying. *hidesqueak*Isosorrynighthand! (In short, make us two a little less seperate, but let us be agreeable about our differences.;P We're like a pair of squabbling siblings. Really.)

And I personally loved the April Fool's day joke, but annoyed by the spammination. I don't care where you're from! Yer just annoying random punks sprayin' spam over a fairly weeded GD-garden wif Spam (prolly unchecked due to the Fool's Day de-modship and them being logged off). AND GET OFF MAH LAWN! *waves a stick at them*

*after much editting and checking...*

One of the main problems with Main may be the bridge connecting it to Subplots. All changes that take on a character in one will also count on the other side. For example, Alice gains levels that raise her level on both boards. It can be summarized as one character for both boards. I'll get straight to the point. The assignments of hacks, levels, and items in Main isn't balanced in the same way as Subplots. In addition, there are cases in which there are reasons to suspect Main intentionally upsets certain balances for its own benefit.

Say, Alice gets to level 15 in Subplots. She then goes to Main, where she readily gains 10 levels with little effort. Even some people who have been there will attest that some, though certainly not all rewards, have been exaggerated. I won't lie. When I see a level 30+ Mainer, I suspect some of the levels are made out of thin air. There are quest rewards that people can see for themselves as being inflated. Alice then wants to participate in some Subplot events where she can gain an edge through her heightened level. Note, though, that bringing Cypher to Main to judge the quests has fixed that matter, but there remains a burning sentiment towards levels. Some of the more recent members are also deserving of their rewards, though some flaws exist in the assignment of items. There are obvious benefits to bringing a Summon Fire, an Emperor's Soul, a Healing Elixir, or a Noble Wine to duels. The Reinier AIM thing really demonstrates it.

The above items might be unknown to some. Summon Fire is a level 1 fire summon scroll. Only three summon scrolls have been given out in Subplots. Emperor's Souls restore full SP. Never given out. Healing Elixirs restore full HP and have never been given out either. Noble Wine restores full HP and SP, never handed out. The advantage of having any of those is noticeable and I don't have to rely on theory to point out situations in which they've appeared. At the beginning of the doubles tournament, several of those items made coincidental appearances in a new Main shop and at bargain prices.

Special class weapons that only a particular member in Main could use appeared twice. High level weapons for normal classes made peculiar appearances and could be bought by anyone, even if they didn't have a high enough level to use the weapons. No work involved, just having enough GP in their pockets. Level 20+ at bargain prices, of course. Now anyone who has a Silver Card can request two items to be stocked. Any two common items, no level limits. One of those items then shows up randomly for two days. I can see someone look for the Starstorm Wand or the Ends of Earth.

The Battle Royale strained relations between the two boards because of some absurd hacks. Some of these examples aren't present there, while others are. A full set of custom armor. The ability to see anything, even through walls. (In principle, this is fine, but with other abilities on top...) The use of super speeds to arrive anywhere within seconds, without a downside. (The owner of that hack may argue that there is one. However, during the Battle Royale he ran two dungeon floors in a post and stated that he/she was still in top condition. The ability is known for irritating some Mainers.) The ability to manipulate all elements, combine them, and turn them into physical manifestations. An array of weapons of any class at your disposal, each one of a fixed element, including special non-standard elements that are actually other people's hacks. A corrupted level which also allows you to have technically infinite SP. Custom classes with their own overpowered attacks.

Presumably, those hacks stay on Main. Mainers really want to have their hacks accepted in Subplot events. There have been notable consequences to those situations. It was a situation before, though perhaps not now, that Mainers wanted to travel freely between the two boards with their hacks on as well. The hacks aren't really a problem as much as a nuisance, but sometimes it feels as if some people are trying to find ways around the limitations (again, kind of the way Reinier made it explicit). Levels are no longer as much of a concern due to Cypher, but items work well because Rayo can't restrict them for the most part. Some Main items also trickle their way down to Subplot players who haven't been to Main. *raises four highly-destructive cards* I've limited them to story usage because they're too strong to use on normal players.

I tack the problem to a lack of rule enforcement and equality with Subplots. Gingitsune doesn't watch over Main because she's busy. There is technically an absence of objective governance. While it's not fostered, people can simply make up an item and write it down in their signature. As long as it isn't very powerful, it might not be noticed. I saw that once, along with a case of someone writing up their own level. We ban for that offense. The phrase "I can just go to Main for a few levels and hacks, then come back." was unfortunately created for a reason.

The issue of marking off Mainers is not without reason. I've come across a lot who've been very rude. In addition, it's very possible some Mainers feel no reservations about insulting people because of a fact. They can only be banned from Subplots and none of their rewards depend on the administrators that can punish them. There is, in effect, very little anyone can do to punish them. Alice could insult people and all she could suffer at worst is a ban from Subplots. Yet her rewards come from Main and she need not care. It doesn't have to be a theoretical situation. Most people should know at least one example and I've personally gone through a few. I had one saved in the burnt computer that showed off creative uses of the F word. I have a nice few PMs from Mainers to Subplot members that have changed people's minds about joining Main. That shouldn't be happening.

I will point out, however, that there are good Mainers. Mainers who don't do anything wrong, or who might not even be known because of being so quiet. I'm trying to avoid names on either end, so I can't name them either. The collective name, though, doesn't do them justice.

[Extra Note: Sorry Nights, I can't get everything across without hugeness.]

"make it easier for people to find main, and mingle- on sub territory, without the spam"

For those of you who don't know, the URL is http://www.glasscharm.org/diverge/index.php

That's a fairly easy problem to fix, just changing a few links here and there. It was change originally because of large influxes of newbs registering on the main board to do subplot things. I think that the few people who don't read the announcements on main these days and miss it can be dealt with, other than that, subs is the more "out there" of the boards, and gets most of the new users anyways.



Now: In response to kiwi's post.

Rewards have been handed out over the ages by three different people; initially Nall, who started it all. Later after Nall left it was Asgard, and yes, his were quite inflated. There were a lot of problems there, hopefully all in the past that we don't have to deal with again. Now, Cypher. He seems to have solved the problem; rewards for this most recent quest indicate that fact in that i don't think anyone gained more than one level; some only got scrolls.

"At the beginning of the doubles tournament, several of those items made coincidental appearances in a new Main shop and at bargain prices."

I'll say that was my fault; as many of you know, I am largely inactive on subs until recently. At the time of the tourney, I was just working on the Black Market idea (which was flawed, see above) and was basically just choosing items to put in it. The coincidence was unintentional, and unfortunate. As for the prices; I simply don't have a complete price guide for things yet. I've been working at making one, to go in NISDIP (a complete weapons, armor, and items list i've been working on) but it is as yet incomplete.

The Battle Royale; it was bad. I know I abused my powers; shortly after I added several limitations to mine, to prevent that sort of misuse. Nall's were made specifically for story purposes; he's more of an NPC than a PC anyways.

"Presumably, those hacks stay on Main. Mainers really want to have their hacks accepted in Subplot events."

To the best of my knowledge, the standing rule was no hacks on subs. That if you were in Main and left, your hacks would be stripped. Before I was GM and Mod, it was abused; I havn't been able to do anything about it because I don't have the authority on subs to do anything about it, and I don't know the full circumstances of the times they were allowed. I know I personally have kept mostly out of subs for that reason; ascendance to GM has put me in a similar state as Nall; no longer fit for subs.

Rule Enforcement has been an issue, like was said before, ever since the administration of the two sites split. No longer was one force making decisions for both boards, rather they became two seperate governments.

"The phrase "I can just go to Main for a few levels and hacks, then come back." was unfortunately created for a reason."

We have been trying to stop this as well, encouraging people to stick in main once they join, the old rule of stripping hacks when you leave, and so forth. More can be done, but we havn't COMPLETLY neglected it.

As for attitudes... I'm not sure what to say. I know sometimes I come across as "superior" or "arrogant", but more often than not it's in jest. I really can't speak for the others, past or present.

I can list you all the item prices for scrolls and items, as far as I've seen exist. I have a guide for Outbreak that I use as a constant reference for item effects and skill names. I'll believe that there was a coincidence and technically, there was no harm. Some items weren't sold off and others I decided to take and hold without use.

There's a logical reason for Main being apart, though, which is to prevent newbies from registering and becoming severely confused. Main isn't as equipped to handle them as Subplots is, due to the development of ideas and means, as opposed to simply saying its something Main can't do. Heck, I got sent here from there.

*drops his glass of water, shortly thereafter goes "thump!" to the floor*

I check main everyday...

I've edited Lyra's post for the sake of brevity, but I'd like to argue a few points here, peacefully, of course.

To address you're first point: Reinier and my 'flaming' chat rooms about how 'evil and two faced' you are. I made it painfully clear that Wolf could show you that chat, and guess what? Someone in the chat leaked it. I'd also like to make something else painfully clear, I didn't give a damn about ten minutes after you ordered my character killed, WITHOUT my permission. I didn't go to Rayo because I didn't give a damn. And I also PMed you saying that I was withdrawing myself from the running. So please don't give it the face of 'I just flat out wasn't accepted.' Sure, I lost the vote, but you had a responsibility to tell your clan I wasn't interested any longer.

On to the next topic: you're apparent hate of the four players you highlighted at the beginning of the paragraph. Could you please specify why you hate us? And I'm not going to take 'because they spam,' as an answer. Hell, to be a Figment Raider is to spam, and if I'm not mistaken, sorry to point fingers, but H4X0R is one of the worst GD spammers on the board. So don't give me that crap.

Next: Mainers, for the most part, have worked their way up from being Subbers. They have every right to come down here, yes I said down, and post in our GD. If they spam, hell, give them what they deserve, unless it's a thread that's pretty much apparently a spam thread, as 'Do you hate me?' so painfully was.

Off the topic of Lyra's post, I would like to address the 'humorlessness' of Subs, which I have to agree with. Hell, GD is supposed to be about whatever we want, that's why it's GENERAL Discussion. I think it was Slicer, correct me if I'm wrong, who said 'If we're a humorless place, then why do you insist on coming back here and trying to bring humor back to us? Wouldn't the humorlessness of it all just make it not worth it?' Well, for those of us who DO have a sense of humor, it might be funny. For those of us who don't, as I say to quite a few people, I hear senses of humor are cheap on eBay.

And on to yet another topic: Mod/Admin meetings. Perhaps we could have some way to make it so that all members of Divvy could have a say. Recently, with the creation of the IRC channel, the Divvy AIM chats are quite frowned upon. However, for those of us who can't get IRC, would it be possible to have some other form of meeting that can serve as a place for us to talk about our feelings towards the board? I have a feeling that it would help a great deal.

And one (hopefully) final topic: Main and Subs getting along. How hard is it? I realize that many people in Subs hate Mainers for their superiority, but hell, they worked hella hard to get there, and are probably better than quite a few people. I know that arrogance can cause a great number of people to get pissed off, and I'm not going to lie, I called Chris and arrogant bitch once (before I knew) because he seemed so damn arrogant. But hell, all of us are arrogant, just saying, "Hey, Mainers are no better than I am," is arrogant. You're putting yourself up onto a pedestal. Everyone who's bashing mainers for being 'so much better' is being a hypocrite. So why don't we all just stow it and get on with our lives? Mainers are probably never going to stop being arrogant, and Subbers are never going to stop accusing them.

That's just my two cents on a number of the issues. Sorry Nights, but looks like you're hopes for small posts is swiftly going to hell in a handbasket. Sorry for having to jump on that bandwagon.

Admins have the abilith to PK anyone they want if they don't feel that they're doing atleast halfway decent in a quest. They don't use that power often.

Just so you know, being "flat out wasn't accepted" means that even if you continued and showed interest, you wouldn't have gotten in.

Though his posts seem like spam, they aren't. They atleast contain a slight bit of info onto what he's thinking about the subject at hand.

Actually, there are Mainers who got in before subs was created. I'm just stating a fact, nothing more.

Yes, but spam is not general. Spam is spam. It's like n00bs. Not acceptable.

Actually, I've checked. They don't sell humor, though they do sell 15K paper clips from time to time.

Sidenote: No one's said that, just yet.

Well, I have a couple things to say. First off, I would have posted sooner but I was banned for the trouble I caused yesterday ^.~

Anyways, I'll take this opportunity to formally apoligze for the spamming. However, I do NOT regret doing it. It showed clearly just how bad things are between all of us. And now, I'm seeing how much of a problem this is.

To be honest, I never cared for subs. It's not that I didn't like it or the people on it, I just didn't care. I dealt with Main and as long as the subbers didn't interfere with the story-line, they could cause whatever havoc they liked.

Then, main crashed. So we put the subbers on a different board. I couldn't have been happier. Now I didn't even have to look at them and have random posts in the main section.

More time passed and RL situations caused a leave of absense for me... Other GM's took over, but Main was clearly falling apart. I came back for a bit, but soon left again. During this time though, I got a really different impression of subs. It looked like a prison, rules super strict. I couldn't believe how picky they were on just the registration! But, I still ignored them. Not my story, not my problem.

Last summer, I came back to check on things. I nearly cried when I saw Main tetering on the edge of death. I got a renewed inspiration who had the name of Nighthand, and decided to make it my MISSION to bring main back.

The biggest problems I saw are actually what subbers complain about most.

1) insane rewards - Ya, I'll admit it, I gave out ridiculous rewards back in the day XD To be honest, I hated grading as it was. I was pleased to find that Cypher would gladly take over for me and he would grade more strictly. Problem solved.

2) Nall's god - I've never said he wasn't cheap. But I don't do this because I want to make myself feel high and mighty. As a GM, my character has little value. I KNOW how to beat my own bosses. It's kinda pointless to 'pretend.' Most GM's have no character and are some omniscient being. Well, Nall's that omniscient being, except I gave him form. Nall's hacks are for the story-line only. Yes there was the BR event where pretty much all the mainer's went overboard. But anyways, the point of this bullet is that Nall's incredible for STORY purposes, and that goes for all the hackers and NPC's involved in main.

3) OMG TEH HACKS! - Ok, this one wasn't resolved. It actually got worse. YES mainers are allowed hacks. In fact, they are ENCOURAGED. This is because it fits the story line. However, where things got out of hand was when hacks were suddenly comming to people randomly... Nighthand's hack is a good example because it has self-story basis and has limits appropriate for the level. However, (not going to point fingers, specially since I can't think of a specific example ><;; sue me, it's 2 in the morning) some player's seemed to have hacks spring out of their ass without background.

As a side not to this point: I WANT to improve this. I know lots of people feel that this is a big issue. Me and Night are discussing ways to fix this. If you have input, then TELL ME. Don't whine that you have no say when you've never SAID anything to me! Which brings me to my next point...

4) Storyline -

Guess what, I DON'T have the entire plot of Main in my head! Amazing no? I plan things sometimes 3 days before they're needed. YES I have a general plot that I try to stick to, but no I don't have all the quests planned out in advance. the "strengths" you mention about the enemies are usually quite cliche, sorry that I'm not an ingenious creator. Ask Night, Wookie's are more creative then me >_<; However, I do get the job done and point across even if the hackers names are stolen from various places. Even if their abilities have been adapted from different places. Actually, I have found a way to help with this. His names Nighthand. He's been helping me with just about everything to do with creativity.

And for my big point: There's a reason Nall's 'seldom reachable' I'm TRYING to let everyone branch off! However, there IS a problem with branching off. If everyone does it, especially at once, Main becomes subs with a different title. I have no problem if people want to do their own thing. I'm quite leniant. But I usually require you to talk to me first. If the GM doesn't know what's going on, it's called "Chaos." Hell, I WISH people would come to me more about their own storylines. Even Tokki was allowed to play evil for a bit. I don't mind letting you take an entire quest on something you want to do, all I ask is you come to me. which no one does.

Anyways, there's probably more, but it's...3:00? lol riiight, daylight's savings time... I'm s-m-r-t. SO, that's what I have to say about what's up with main. Now back to the whole ordeal with Main VS Subs. (man I've got too much to say :P)

I actually just noticed this today and it made me laugh. .hack//divergence. I'm sure Gingi couldn't have anticipated the irony in the name she chose oh so long ago. As I stated at the beginning of my little story, I never payed attention to subs. Not my job, not my problem. I'm sure most of you have seen that seeing as how I'm never there :) Once again, it's not that I dislike it. HOWEVER, I HAVE grown a dislike for some of the people there. Namely the Main/Nall haters. Some of you I can understand the dislike for main and me, however, other's I've never even talked to o.O;; ie. Asura has this burning hate for me, and I have nooooo clue who she is :/ I've just heard stories.

ANYWAYS, this whole thing has shown me that subs is a part of the entire entity that is .hack//divergence and that it is important that there is at least a BOND between the two sites. One of the problems is yes, the different leadership. Gingi is the ultimate overseer of everything, but Rayo and the other admins take care of subs issues, me and Night generally take care of main issues. Me and Night have no power in subs, Rayo and the rest of the admins have no power in Main. But we seem to be at 2 opposite ends of the spectrum. While main is overlenient, subs is quite strict.

While I dislike being ridiculed by most of subs, the complaining does point out our faults. Main is not perfect, it never was. But it's not the hell hole some of you make it out to be. Not all of main is arrogant. Though I will admit that I tend to get upset when people don't respect me(Sorry for whatever I've done in the past but I still helped create this site).

That is the end of my ramble. If you're lazy and didn't read it all the main point is that

YES there are some problems with main, but we do NOT deserve the ill-commentary nor the "punnishment" of those who wish to go to main or associate with them.
YES we need to work together on issues.
YES I'm sure I've missed a million points
and YES it's 3:30 and I'm TIRED T_T

(SIDE NOTE THAT I JUST THOUGHT OF: You know, sometimes people like to just spam and have fun. Act like 2 year olds and be retards :) As a suggestion, you could make a section like Gaia-Online. A "Chatterbox" where people can go and do whatever. I mean, if it's in a different section who cares right? Just a little something I thought of)

*sighs* Fine, I'll bite.

I never ordered your character killed. They asked if they could kill you, and I told them I didn't care if they did or not.

I don't think I hate Nighthand anymore, since he's being civil about all this. The other three of you that I named, though, are the ones I view as being belligerent. The three of you go out looking for arguements all the time. If there's an opportunity to flame, you take it. You and Reinier moreso than Zan, true, but he's still been getting on my nerves, and frankly, I thought honesty was the best policy here.

Your post here is a prime example of why I dislike you. Everything was going fine here; the topic is serving its purpose, main and subs are talking things out calmly. Then you, unable to leave well enough alone, have to race in to defend your honor. Even Reinier didn't do that, and I know he was on and had the opportunity to earlier.

Oops, would like to add one thing: Since day one, we Figment Raiders have been defending agains the spamming image that Sargeth and Litter accidentally gave us early on. Randomness and spamming/offtopicness/uselessness are entirely different things. Hero is the perfect example of what we're supposed to be like. I've had to lose most of my randomness to work effectivly.

Now if you *looks around, then continues* gentlemen will excuse me, I'm going to go get some rest.

Yes, all in all I think this has done quite well the first day. Let's hope for continued success to work at solving all these problems.

Ok, I need to defend myself against Nall in the light way. Yes, I know my class popped up all of a sudden. I was busy with joining the military and such when I came up with it, but Gingi knows the whole background and it is there. Anyone who asks me I tell them enough background for them to understand. I did once have the story typed up, but I moved to a different state and thus, it is still on the computer I saved it on; ehh the moving was random so I never thought to do it. For those that know me well, I hate posting chapters and such, if I am going to do a backstory, then I will type up parts untill I have reached the character max or very close to it; then post and continue on. My class has a backstory that has roots ALL the back to one of my very first quests where I had Vera infected with a virus and such, but even back in her profile history it connects to that.

Yes most of us Mainers have egos to, but a lot of you sub members do as well and I can prove it. I am not saying either side is better, but I just want to know why we can't get along...it's said really, but we all I need to make new rules to stop this. I think maybe we should make it illegal on main and subs to bash either board, but that wont stop all the problems.

People like Lyra have done great things to be anti-mainish, but not bad things. Lyra is probaly one of the more civil people I know when it comes to main. You can join FR after joining main, but not before. That is smart and it shows that she doesn't hate us.

As for yesterday's spam fest; yes it was AFD (April Fools Day) and sure it was a joke. But Nall and Reinier did it to make Lyra mad and such, but their banning was fair. Though this also helps prove that AFD Jokes are very stupid, since the whole thing with Pendant was a good chunk responsible for it all because he removed all staff power to make the joke funnier in his mind. I can assure you his butt has been ripped and such, but that is not important. Lyra holds a position of power that is not to be freely screwed with like those two did and everyone knows my hatred for AFD so I can't show them as much compassion as I should.

Something most of you don't know is that yesterday Main and Subs came VERY close to death because of this fighting crap. And by death I mean deletion, so take that as a sign to please calm down and let us all be friends like it was in the day or at least keep your hate for us mainers to yourself..completely to yourself; since you all know the lengths I will go to to see someone who bad mouths people behind their back punished. We all need to sit around the camp fire and eat some smores and such. Lets sing a happy song and get waste or something. ^_^ Ok people how does that sound?

Nicely said...

I'd just like to say that I don't see much difference between the two boards - apart from Main having a smaller group of role players and Subs having a larger group.

It would make since to have more restrictions with a larger group, so if the subs have more restrictions it can be atributted to that. I'm not 100% sure if there are differences in restrictions between the two sections of Divergence, though.

Another point, for the most part Mainers can be considered better posters then those in the subs, but that is only a general statement. There is nothing saying that the best posters have to go into Main, so the Subs do have posters that are just as good as the Main posters. The main difference between the two in posting ability that I see is that the Subs has newbies.

I, myself, have absolutely nothing against Main or the Subs. In fact, I intend to try out for Main the next chance I get.

hi :D

um i think this may be a bad idea becuase isn't the reason we close threads or lock them is becuase it takes up space and somewhere down the line someone has to pay band width?

now if there has to be a place like this which im against then please can we have two rules? one, no swearing. two no raceist/ sexist/well everyotherist here is.

i've read some spam on this site just for fun and got sick when i saw the f word over and over.. and one had a joke about jews... why theres no point?

anyways... theres my well points.(i have hundreds others but im new here plus its early.

Nope. Invision board is free ^_^ It's Main's board that needs to be paid for. The reason why Spam is locked is (I assume) so that GD isn't flooded with junk and that ACTUAL posts arn't ignored/bumed to the bottom.

The main difference's in restrictions is mainly in main, the players have developed hacks. In subs, this is completely against the rules. There are other ones, but this is the main difference between the 'restrictions' of the two boards.

Moving on to Vera's point... I'm not saying some of you don't have backstories in your head. Nor am I saying you need to explain EVERYTHING about your backstory and hack. But I do think that the story line requires some formal backstory. Even if it's just a little teaser that kinda hints but doesn't explain everything. Being able to recite your backstory OOC really doesn't serve any point since it's the story we're interested in. For the player's IC, most should be (though usually arn't) like "wtf? o.O;;;;" Like I said, I'm still working with Night on a way to make hacks fair and more reasonable.

a) April fools day is great. If you don't like april fools day how can you have a sense of humor :P B) As for Lyra, it wasn't Lyra who banned us. It was Rayo lol He was just doing his job

I'm only going to address one point in this post, and that is the point regarding subs "humorlessness." In my opinion, Subs is rich with humor, it's just that it's a humor of a different kind from Main. I think this has come about due to the leaders of both sites. Rayo is strict, it's true, but he is not a total tightwad. And it's very true, Rayo has some very humorous things going around on this site.

On the other hand, many complain about the lack of humor. I say that no, it's not a lack of humor, it's a different kind of humor. I see that these people expect humor that resembles something from the Dave Chappelle Show, or humor that comes from Jackass the Movie. However, we at subs were practically RAISED to not appreciate that kind of thing, and if it did happen, we pretty much did not like it.

Our humor is more of a goofy humor, a humor involving penguins, pandas, and other assorted silly things. For instance, I laughed very hard at the "Peace and Love" special event, which involved hunting evil grasshoppers, feeding picky pandas, and catching bunnies. The viewership of the Dave Chappelle Show (which incidentally I find very funny) would find this kind of nonsense totally devoid of humor.

In the end, I think that the Subs is very moralistic. We're different from everyone else in that we don't really appreciate jokes about racism, doing drugs, etc. etc. We try to brush that sort of thing under the carpet, and personally, I'm all for that.

You ever log in, and find a really interesting, and well thought out topic, but find that it's already 3 pages in? I hate that :P

Anyways, back on topic: I wouldn't say I'm new, exactly, but I'm not really a veteran, either. I was here for the last Main recruitment. I even played with the idea of trying out. I didn't, but that's just because I can't follow a set storyline (and I didn't expect to get accepted). It has always been my opinion that Main isn't better than Subs, and Subs isn't better than Main. They both have their ups and downs, their good and bads. I've never really understood the arguments of Main-haters. And the only difference I've seen from players who have gone to Main, is a decrease in activity on Subs (whether that be a total absence, or just a slight one).

I believe there was a topic a while ago, intended to make Subbers a little more aware of what was happening in Main. The address was posted, and we were encouraged to read up on the storyline, so we could better understand the plot. At that time, though, Main was practically dead. There were actually a lot of talk about how to get Main moving again. From what I've heard from this topic, that problem has been addressed, and fixed (I think).

As for the hacks Mainers were getting, the only ones I had heard of were for weapons. If I remember correctly, I had heard that as a reward in Main, if you were doing good, improving well, and moving the story along, you could get your own personal weapon. You got to name it, give it elements, attacks, etc. In essence, completely customize it. Personally, I hadn't heard of any other types of hacks (in Main. There are the Figgies animal hacks, but those aren't exactly benificial hacks. They're just fun :) ).

That's all I got to say.

PS. Seriously though, that whole Mod/Admin meeting-discussion-thingy sounds like a really good idea. It would probably clear up alot of things. Though, it should at least be accessable by regular players for viewing (if not for posting).


EDIT to Phoenix: Actually, I never thought of it that way. But yeah, that makes sense. Rumors suck.

First off, I thought the AFD wasn't doing no harm when I was on during the day. If I was on during the chaotic part, I don't know if let it run or try to stop it since I still had my mod powers. Some people did take it to be serious but mostly likely, they forgot what day it was.

Anyway now to a comment that Uruvei said about having everyone being Main and if they want to join the Main Plot that they would go through the registration process of subs. The problem with this is that people who have bad writing skills would be accepted immediately without any improvement during the registration process. Divergence is trying to maintain a certain quality which is a good thing. I always see it as that the registration process was basically a first step to get into Main. That's always been my view.

There was a short period of time when I joined Main but wasn't a mod. I still hang around subs and I just be myself. I don't really have an ego complex about main but I follow the rule of not questing in subs. In some way that's really a no-win sitution as if Mainers could quest in subs that they would spread their superiority to the subbers or that they can't quest that the subbers would think that Mainers don't want to come down their level.

Domini as for the IRC chat, I had this idea a couple years ago but I didn't had any power back then to convince them to create one. I basically I got tired of the lagging of the AIM chats and created the channel. I even posted a link to getting an IRC client. There's also programs like Trillian or Gaim that have built-in IRC clients that you can use.

There's one more thing that I would like to address. I always believe that internal problems should stay internal. If the regular members knew of our problems, there would be only chaos from all the rampant rumors and such. If we actually do mod/admin meetings, they should be closed to regular members so that misinformation would be down to a minimum.